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***Official West Indies in New Zealand***
- Thread starter Athlai
- Start date
Matt52
U19 Vice-Captain
I agree its unfair, but Franklin will probably come back in so someone will have to make way. I dont know who. Out of the two bunnies, OBrien was the more successful on this tour and the English one IIRC. Dont forget if we lose Martins experience we will gain Franklins experience so I dont see that as an issue.
I would just choose a bunch of young guys who are considered to be the most talented around and then give them 2 years to develop. Regardless of Performance. But then again I always preferred watching a young guy with talent than a experienced player that might not have the skills but compete on canniness. The former promised better days in the future while the latter laid bare what the oncoming years would hold, nothing more than what you see today.
I would play:
Guptill
How/Hay
Fulton/ replaced by Williamson in 2 years
Taylor
Ryder
Oram/ dont know about his finger/ replaced by Anderson in two or three years.
McCullum
Vettori
Franklin
Southee
Sherlock.
So hopefully in two years the batting lineup would be Guptill, ?, Williamson, Taylor, Ryder, Anderson. Talent wise thats probably as good s we've ever had. just choose that team consistently and hope they come good.
I heard he would be absolutely fine to bat for the first test.
_Ed_
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Wouldn't be confident of ever seeing him fully fit on the park in NZ colours.
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
Southee goes. He's talented, and in a season or two he'll be the real deal, but right now he's just not up to it physically, and maybe even mentally. This is the second time in a row that he's followed one spell of brilliant bowling, with 8 days of unpenetrative medium pace. Give him a year or two in FC cricket and A tours to work on his fitness and to learn a bit more from domestic coaches who can give him the right amount of attention.
Franklin is a VASTLY superior batsman to Southee, so the tail will still be massively strengthened. I've already said that having the best number 8 and 9 should be enough to counteract having the worst number 10 and 11.
Also Martin is a greatly more experienced player than Franklin (45 to 21 tests) so I don't think you can really say you're getting a like for like replacement in that regard. Choosing a bunch of young guys and giving them a go is essentially what we've been doing for the past 12 months and its got us nowhere. You gotta have at least a couple of old salts in the team or the youngsters wouldn't ever learn anything. Part of the reason why Bangladesh is so rubbish is because they never have any experienced players. Players like Iqbal, Nafees etc. have arguably as much talent as the present kiwi bunch, but without some experienced old heads to guide them, they struggle.
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
I heard 3 to 4 weeks. In any case you don't want him coming back in and then risking shattering it before its fully healed.
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
He's far superior to Southee too.
Days of Grace
International Captain
I have a feeling the guys will be feeling pumped up to face the Windies at home after a tough tour of Australia, much like the Aussies did when they faced us after India.
I would keep the batting lineup the same, but swap Fulton and Ryder around.
Southee should keep his place, because surely there should be some swing on offer in Dunedin in early December?
I think the young batting lineup was just overawned by Australia. Let's see how they go against a weaker opposition at home. If they fail in this series too, then we may have problems. If Oram is fit enough, I would replace Flynn, who, like others have said, may benefit from more domestic cricket to see if he really is a cut above the other competition.
Franklin in for Martin, who just looks unpenetrative at the moment. Jimmy bowled 18 overs yesterday for Wellington. He is ready.
My ideal team:
Redmond
How
Fulton
Taylor
Ryder
Oram
McCullum
Franklin
Vettori
Southee
O'Brien
All of a sudden we have one of the strongest tails in the world, and not the weakest.
I would keep the batting lineup the same, but swap Fulton and Ryder around.
Southee should keep his place, because surely there should be some swing on offer in Dunedin in early December?
I think the young batting lineup was just overawned by Australia. Let's see how they go against a weaker opposition at home. If they fail in this series too, then we may have problems. If Oram is fit enough, I would replace Flynn, who, like others have said, may benefit from more domestic cricket to see if he really is a cut above the other competition.
Franklin in for Martin, who just looks unpenetrative at the moment. Jimmy bowled 18 overs yesterday for Wellington. He is ready.
My ideal team:
Redmond
How
Fulton
Taylor
Ryder
Oram
McCullum
Franklin
Vettori
Southee
O'Brien
All of a sudden we have one of the strongest tails in the world, and not the weakest.
Matt52
U19 Vice-Captain
Yeah , but he is playing for CD at the moment, so thats something.
Matt52
U19 Vice-Captain
Sure, if there were a couple of experienced guys like Fleming, Astle or Styris around then absolutely. But there is really nobody that is experienced at international cricket in terms of batsmen in NZ at the moment. Our older players are Redmond with 7 or 8 games, How with about 15, Bell with 18, and so on. Maybe Sinclair?? They are older and that is something,....
but I think we have a choice between 28, 29 year old inexperienced guys or younger inexperienced guys. The older guys were the ones who were around when Fleming, Styris, Astle, and McMillan were in the side and weren't good enough to force those guys out or hold a place in the side by themselves. i.e. Bell, Redmond, Cumming, Sinclair, J Marshall, Papps, etc.
But a least with the younger side we could choose some players of genuine talent that can develop to compare with Fleming, Astle, Styris . I think genuine talent is a prerequisite for a cricket team and then hope that guy can develop, gain experience, composure, and start to perform. If you dont have the talent to start with then it matters little how much experience you have.Thats the category i think a lot of the older guts fall into,... if they were good enough they would have kept their place or pushed aside Styris, Astle etc, but they didnt.
I know you need a few wiser older heads but my post was really referring more to the batting, and there is really no older players that are good enough IMO, but for me Vettori, McCullum, Oram, and Franklin will make up the old timers club in the side because they are the only ones IMO that have a bit of experience and have shown the talent for international cricket. Perhaps the team looks a bit bare because Oram and Franklin are both out.
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, I wasn't really thinking about the batting either. Whoever we pick now, we'll be picking someone who's barely played at international level before. I was making the point that you don't drop an experienced player like Martin, just because someone who might be more "talented" (god I hate that word) has come along. He has so much to offer, not just as a player, and not just as a bowling mentor. He can help a lot of the batsman by sharing his experience of dealing with pressure situations, (obviously not as a batsman, but they're still of great value). And you certainly don't drop an experienced player who's actually thoroughly out bowled his younger rival, no matter how incompetent he is with the bat.
Athlai
Not Terrible
You wouldn't be replacing Southee for Martin as they provide very different roles with the ball.
Franklin for Martin.
Southee retains.
O'Brien retains.
O'Brien and Martin are very similar bowlers and right now O'Brien is bowling better.
Southee in NZ conditions will be a handful far more often than flat tracks in Australia. 4 wickets at the start of a match could be the difference between winning and losing.
Franklin is just a gun all round. We don't need two work horses.
Franklin for Martin.
Southee retains.
O'Brien retains.
O'Brien and Martin are very similar bowlers and right now O'Brien is bowling better.
Southee in NZ conditions will be a handful far more often than flat tracks in Australia. 4 wickets at the start of a match could be the difference between winning and losing.
Franklin is just a gun all round. We don't need two work horses.
Matt52
U19 Vice-Captain
Love that word. I dont know about the bowlers. I find it difficult to see who is a talented bowler and who isnt, whereas in the batting it always seems very clear. My point before is that Martin and Obrien are both bunnies and we cant afford to have both of them in the team with our batting line up. If you dont agree with that then sure, keep both of them.
Batting wise, talent is an absolute must which means Redmond shouldnt be selected again. Talent is only 10 percent of batting success at international level, but if you dont have enough of it, the hard work, experience and such things count for little.
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
I do, provided you have a top class 8 and 9 to to counterbalance them, which New Zealand has in Franklin and Vettori.
Flem274*
123/5
I'm getting really irritated by calls on radio and on here to drop Martin becuase he can't bat. Batsmen for batting, bowlers for bowling, or do we want to start picking rubbish bits and pieces players? The batting will never be sorted if we focus on putting the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff by picking good tailend batsmen.