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The Road to the 2009 Ashes

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Personally Id like to see an England side like this for the next Ashes:

Cook/Strauss
(Like to see a different opener here. Historically the best opening partnerships have always had one aggressor in it, and having both Cook and Strauss is a recipe for failure depending of course on the kind of Australian bowling unit that turns up). Possibly Key?
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Patel
Flintoff
Prior
Anderson
Harmison
Jones/Hoggard

12th man: Panesar

Id also have Broad in the squad.
Don't think an aggressor is necessary, and Key certainly isn't the man to be one. England are short on aggressive openers because the new ball almost always swings here and they end up having their asses handed to them regularly.

Other than that, the side looks much the same as i'd pick next summer- dependent on Patel improving though, and i'd have Shah over Bell too.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
There is absolutely no way The Independent is the best paper in the UK.

For cricket, The Times and The Torygraph have usually been the best. The Guardian is OK too.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Don't think an aggressor is necessary, and Key certainly isn't the man to be one. England are short on aggressive openers because the new ball almost always swings here and they end up having their asses handed to them regularly.

Other than that, the side looks much the same as i'd pick next summer- dependent on Patel improving though, and i'd have Shah over Bell too.
I also simply don't see Paul Collingwood doing terribly well if there's anything much in the decks for seam and if Stuart Clark stays fit (and doesn't get dropped like he was in India 8-)). For all Collingwood's fighting quality he lacks the technique to deal with top-class bowling and it doesn't get much better than Clark on a seamer.
 

FBU

International Debutant
Don't think an aggressor is necessary, and Key certainly isn't the man to be one. England are short on aggressive openers because the new ball almost always swings here and they end up having their asses handed to them regularly.

Other than that, the side looks much the same as i'd pick next summer- dependent on Patel improving though, and i'd have Shah over Bell too.
I'd have Shah over Bell as well. Maybe there will be a place for Shah as I don't think Collingwood's shoulder is going to last until next summer. His fielding has suffered because of it and there will be plenty of diving around before the Ashes.
 

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I'd have Shah over Bell as well. Maybe there will be a place for Shah as I don't think Collingwood's shoulder is going to last until next summer. His fielding has suffered because of it and there will be plenty of diving around before the Ashes.
I'm not sold on Shah, but Bell is just pretty... bad. Emphasis on pretty.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Bell's fresh off 199 against South Africa. Yeah the pitch was terribly flat but he came in at three for about 100 IIRC and it had more life in it at that stage than it did at any other stage of the match.

This is where I think people's criticisms of Bell are a bit off. There's no question that he's scored a lot of his big runs on flat tracks and there's also no question that he has a bad habit of throwing it away after getting set, but the perception that he's mentally weak under pressure is, IMO, wrong. Regardless of how flat the pitch was, he came in to bat in a less-than-good situation at 3/100 last summer and scored 199 - what might have been in that match if he did what so many were surely expecting and faltered when South Africa had the upper hand?

He also regularly came on and made vital contributions at #3 in Sri Lanka after England had lost a really early wicket - he didn't convert his 70s into hundreds but again, his contributions were very important in the context of the match at the time (as were his dismissals, unfortunately). He was less than impressive against New Zealand and unfortunately his performances actually typified what people tend to say about him, but I'd still be backing him to score more runs than Shah against Australia, particularly given his experience against them.
 

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Bell's fresh off 199 against South Africa. Yeah the pitch was terribly flat but he came in at three for about 100 IIRC and it had more life in it at that stage than it did at any other stage of the match.

This is where I think people's criticisms of Bell are a bit off. There's no question that he's scored a lot of his big runs on flat tracks and there's also no question that he has a bad habit of throwing it away after getting set, but the perception that he's mentally weak under pressure is, IMO, wrong. Regardless of how flat the pitch was, he came in to bat in a less-than-good situation at 3/100 last summer and scored 199 - what might have been in that match if he did what so many were surely expecting and faltered when South Africa had the upper hand?

He also regularly came on and made vital contributions at #3 in Sri Lanka after England had lost a really early wicket - he didn't convert his 70s into hundreds but again, his contributions were very important in the context of the match at the time (as were his dismissals, unfortunately). He was less than impressive against New Zealand and unfortunately his performances actually typified what people tend to say about him, but I'd still be backing him to score more runs than Shah against Australia, particularly given his experience against them.
Tbh, i don't buy into the "mentally weak" theory. I think he's just not very good- he mistimes too many shots, he chooses the wrong ones, he's more vulnerable than most to the good ball even when well set. There's no one, obvious technical flaw, he just doesn't have either the hand-eye co-ordination, the concentration or the consistent timing ability to be a success at test level IMO. Averaging 39 (non-Bangladesh) after this many tests isn't what good players do.

On Lord's, it's worth mentioning that the South African bowlers bowled worse than any attack i've seen this year.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Tbh, i don't buy into the "mentally weak" theory. I think he's just not very good- he mistimes too many shots, he chooses the wrong ones, he's more vulnerable than most to the good ball even when well set. There's no one, obvious technical flaw, he just doesn't have either the hand-eye co-ordination, the concentration or the consistent timing ability to be a success at test level IMO. Averaging 39 (non-Bangladesh) after this many tests isn't what good players do.

On Lord's, it's worth mentioning that the South African bowlers bowled worse than any attack i've seen this year.
Averaging 39 isn't the mark of a bad player, though, and he does have time on his side. He must be about 26? I have a bit of faith in him itbt
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
If he was 26 and had only been playing a couple of years, yeah. But he's been around a fair while now - over 3 years since he became a perminant member of the side. It really is high time he starts to do more than score either easy big runs or insufficient slightly more difficult runs.

I haven't completely given-up hope, but it won't be long before I do. My hope for him has been slowly decreasing over the last year.

I'll say it again though, it's utterly ridiculous the amount he's been tossed up and down the order. He's now been moved from five\six to three\four 7 times. I just wish he'd been left at five, where he played on his debut. I also wish he hadn't been picked (against Bangladesh, obviously, as once he played against them he created an irrefutable case to play against Australia) in 2005.

I'm still happier with him at five\six than three\four, and it'll be interesting to see where he bats in India.
 

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Averaging 39 isn't the mark of a bad player, though, and he does have time on his side. He must be about 26? I have a bit of faith in him itbt
I don't know, 39 is very mediocre in this age. It would be okay if he scored those runs when his team really needed him to like Atherton. Or if he fully took advantage when the going was good, like a proper flat-track bully. Scoring neither important runs nor many runs is a bit much for me. I'd give Shah a shot.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Shah deserves a shout, for sure. But 39 is not atrocious - there are plenty of batsmen with worse averages. Plus, as Cribbage said, he has scored runs under pressure, SA at home with that splendid 199 being the best example
 

Burgey

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Tbh, i don't buy into the "mentally weak" theory. I think he's just not very good- he mistimes too many shots, he chooses the wrong ones, he's more vulnerable than most to the good ball even when well set. There's no one, obvious technical flaw, he just doesn't have either the hand-eye co-ordination, the concentration or the consistent timing ability to be a success at test level IMO. Averaging 39 (non-Bangladesh) after this many tests isn't what good players do.

On Lord's, it's worth mentioning that the South African bowlers bowled worse than any attack i've seen this year.
I thought you watched Australia bowl in India this past month?
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Don't think an aggressor is necessary, and Key certainly isn't the man to be one. England are short on aggressive openers because the new ball almost always swings here and they end up having their asses handed to them regularly..
Not necessarily an aggressor, but they need someone who is willing to play some strokes at the top of the order and can take the pressure off the other. Its all fine and good to have defensive batsmen but when the combination of them tie their end up and put pressure on the other without getting any runs on the board, it is almost always a recipe for disaster.
I do not see the combination of Strauss and Cook succeeding at the international level tbh, and I certainly dont see the current version of Strauss who seems to believe he can leave absolutely everything outside the off stump and defend everything thats full and still manage to score runs8-)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Well TBF, it's better than driving and nicking most full stuff the way he was in 2006 and 2007.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
If he was 26 and had only been playing a couple of years, yeah. But he's been around a fair while now - over 3 years since he became a perminant member of the side. It really is high time he starts to do more than score either easy big runs or insufficient slightly more difficult runs.

I haven't completely given-up hope, but it won't be long before I do. My hope for him has been slowly decreasing over the last year.

I'll say it again though, it's utterly ridiculous the amount he's been tossed up and down the order. He's now been moved from five\six to three\four 7 times. I just wish he'd been left at five, where he played on his debut. I also wish he hadn't been picked (against Bangladesh, obviously, as once he played against them he created an irrefutable case to play against Australia) in 2005.

I'm still happier with him at five\six than three\four, and it'll be interesting to see where he bats in India.
Can't see Bell batting anywhere other than 3 in India. For me, he's produced his most impressive innings in that position. Or at least, the only times he's contributed when the going is a lot less than easy. Obv I'm aware of his averages.

How long we should persevere with him is another matter though. He does seem to be lacking something. I think it's more to do with cricketing intelligence than ticker.
 

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Not necessarily an aggressor, but they need someone who is willing to play some strokes at the top of the order and can take the pressure off the other. Its all fine and good to have defensive batsmen but when the combination of them tie their end up and put pressure on the other without getting any runs on the board, it is almost always a recipe for disaster.
I do not see the combination of Strauss and Cook succeeding at the international level tbh, and I certainly dont see the current version of Strauss who seems to believe he can leave absolutely everything outside the off stump and defend everything thats full and still manage to score runs8-)
I think Cook's been given the aggressor role. Against SA, he did always seem to score at a decent pace, a strike rate of above 50. The problem i foresee with Cook is that he depends on being exceptionally fantastic at a few shots. Smith missed a trick here this summer, but i fancy if you use a third man and deep square leg and don't bowl any short stuff, the runs could dry up to a massive extent. And with his foot movement, it often seems like only a matter of time before he nicks one.

Cook's my favourite batsman in the England team at the minute, and i'd tip him to have an excellent career. But there's definitely a lot of improvement that needs to be made first.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Cook isn't a natural aggressor at all, he's just more aggressive than Strauss (provided Strauss is playing the way that allows him to score rather than the way he played in 2006 and 2007 which essentially just got him out cheaply again and again).

I myself don't have a problem with the way Strauss played against New Zealand, I think that should make him a pretty good Test opener under all circumstances. He'll score damn slowly, but he should be extremely difficult to dislodge even with a new-ball, which is the most important thing for an opener - to see-off the new-ball.

Cook's technique still has areas that worry me and I can see Stuart Clark (and Brett Lee providing he can swing the ball in) causing him problems again unless he tightens-up in the next six months. But he's had these problems for a fair while now and it's a concern that as of yet not much has been done about it. Whether he's trying and not getting anywhere or (possibly more worryingly still) no-one has noticed the faults, the result is the same.
 

Jakester1288

International Regular
Ian Bell is no slouch, I have hope for him as a test batsmen. I was impressed with his 100 in the 2006/07 Ashes over here. I can't remember the circumstances, but I remember watching his start, till he converted it. We couldn't get the wicket, and he batted quite well. Hopefully he can churn out a few results in his home country this time, and England can pout up a good fight.

39 is average, but anything over 40 is good in my books. He is only 26, he has time to get that over 45 if he plays well for an extended period of time, say from now to Christmas 2010.
 

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