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The Road to the 2009 Ashes

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
I'd bet my balls on Harmison playting in the Ashes, Pietersen wants him in the side for that series

Simon Jones would be great if he could get fit. It's possible, but I'm not hopeful.

Really have no clue which spinner Aus will bring, but yeah, would take Panesar over any of them from what I've seen/read.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Interested to hear why.

Both have flattered to deceive hugely, to probably equal degrees, but Clarke's merely had outstanding things expected and has merely delivered middling performance (since 2006/07 anyway - he was poor before that) and Bell has had pretty high things expected of him and delivered not that much at all.

I still have more hope for Clarke becoming a top-shelf player than I do Bell, and as I say, there's absolutely no doubt for mine that Clarke has accomplished more to date and were both to fall to career-ending injuries tomorrow I'd say Clarke's was the better career, no questions asked.
Both have a reputation of being poor under pressure and whilst Bell hasn't shown himself excellent in these situations, I think it's only really true of Clarke.

Other than his debut innings, one innings on the 2005 tour of England and arguably his hundred in India just recently, I fail to recall a time he's scored runs when Australia haven't been completely on top. Obviously it's harder to do so when you're in such a good team, but when you combine that with the fact that his First Class record is pretty modest (granted, he's gone some way to rectifying that whenever he's had the chance lately, but still), the fact that I don't rate him technically against away-moving bowling and the fact that he's seemingly failed whenever Australia have needed runs from him, he still has much to prove for mine. At lot of Clarke's rating at Test level IMO comes from what he's done in ODIs and whilst I don't think you would fall into that trap, a lot do.

Bell also has the reputation of being someone who falters under pressure but I don't really buy into much. A lot of this IMO comes from the fact that often seems to get out playing "soft" shots and, to a lesser extent, the way he looks when he's out there. He's played some really useful knocks for England when they've been under pressure and they're under-appreciated because people remember the soft shot he played on 70 rather than the innings itself. His performances on the tour of Sri Lanka just recently typify my point. He's obviously underachieved and his tendancy to just gift his wicket at times when well set is a serious problem but he's proven more to me than Clarke as well as having a more distinguished First Class record, and I struggle to believe that he could maintain an average over 40 in a middle-of-the-road team having batted all over the place without playing his fair share of important knocks. It's really more a case of me not thinking particuarly highly of Clarke than thinking Bell has achieved heaps, though.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I'd bet my balls on Harmison playting in the Ashes, Pietersen wants him in the side for that series
If Pietersen is sensible, he'll want the best players in the side. Given that I hope Pietersen is going to be sensible and actually look at who is good rather than who he thinks could be good, I hope Harmison won't play in The Ashes.

If Harmison takes 8 wickets at 60 this winter in whatever games he plays, I'd hope no amount of Pietersen rating him as potentially good will get him in the team.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
I agree with the Clarke sentiments but Bell really is guilty of scoring against weak attacks, when others are scoring big in comfortable positions.

He isnt a player Id ever want to rely on to score tough runs. Its not that he cant, its just that it is unlikely.
 

pup11

International Coach
Interested to hear why.

Both have flattered to deceive hugely, to probably equal degrees, but Clarke's merely had outstanding things expected and has merely delivered middling performance (since 2006/07 anyway - he was poor before that) and Bell has had pretty high things expected of him and delivered not that much at all.

I still have more hope for Clarke becoming a top-shelf player than I do Bell, and as I say, there's absolutely no doubt for mine that Clarke has accomplished more to date and were both to fall to career-ending injuries tomorrow I'd say Clarke's was the better career, no questions asked.
I am with Richard on this, Clarke has a tendency of falling in pressure situations but still i think he would grow into a much better player than Bell in every form of the game over the years, Clarke is just more naturally talented and gifted batsman for me and Bell on the other hand comes across as an over-coached batsmen with a poor temperament, Bell has a tendency to get starts but then he just throws them away, Clarke post Ashes 06-07 has improved a lot in that regard, whenever he has made a start more or less he has converted it into a hundred, so the only question over Clarke is can he perform when he is truly under the pump.

Bell is someone who suffers from bouts of poor concentration, looks good for while plays a few great shots right out from the coaching manual, and then he gets out, so he has obviously got some problems with his concentration there and that's far bigger a problem then Clarke'.
 

Uppercut

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Both have a reputation of being poor under pressure and whilst Bell hasn't shown himself excellent in these situations, I think it's only really true of Clarke.

Other than his debut innings, one innings on the 2005 tour of England and arguably his hundred in India just recently, I fail to recall a time he's scored runs when Australia haven't been completely on top. Obviously it's harder to do so when you're in such a good team, but when you combine that with the fact that his First Class record is pretty modest (granted, he's gone some way to rectifying that whenever he's had the chance lately, but still), the fact that I don't rate him technically against away-moving bowling and the fact that he's seemingly failed whenever Australia have needed runs from him, he still has much to prove for mine. At lot of Clarke's rating at Test level IMO comes from what he's done in ODIs and whilst I don't think you would fall into that trap, a lot do.

Bell also has the reputation of being someone who falters under pressure but I don't really buy into much. A lot of this IMO comes from the fact that often seems to get out playing "soft" shots and, to a lesser extent, the way he looks when he's out there. He's played some really useful knocks for England when they've been under pressure and they're under-appreciated because people remember the soft shot he played on 70 rather than the innings itself. His performances on the tour of Sri Lanka just recently typify my point. He's obviously underachieved and his tendancy to just gift his wicket at times when well set is a serious problem but he's proven more to me than Clarke as well as having a more distinguished First Class record, and I struggle to believe that he could maintain an average over 40 in a middle-of-the-road team having batted all over the place without playing his fair share of important knocks. It's really more a case of me not thinking particuarly highly of Clarke than thinking Bell has achieved heaps, though.
Clarke scores heaps more runs though. Bell's average without Bangladesh drops to a chilly 39, Clarke's rises to a respectable 47 (world xi test not included). It's an overused fact, but Bell has only ever scored a century when someone else in his team already has. That's not to say he hasn't even been in pressure situations and done well, but it's telling nonetheless. Clarke has a flattering average of 47, Bell has a flattering average of 39.
 

pup11

International Coach
Regarding Clarke not having scored too many tough runs, its not as if Clarke hasn't scored any tough runs at all, his knocks in his debut test innings, his 90 odd in the 1st Ashes test in 2005, his 50 odd in the Trent bridge test in the 05 Ashes and even his knock in the Delhi test recently (despite the dropped catches) showed he is more than capable of scoring the tough runs even in test cricket, in ODI cricket he is one the main players for Australia as he and Hussey are the two blokes, who have so many times bailed Australia out of trouble, so i think nothing really suggests that Clarke won't be able to score tough runs in the future, just because he has perished on previous occasions when the pressure has been on.
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
Clarke scores heaps more runs though. Bell's average without Bangladesh drops to a chilly 39, Clarke's rises to a respectable 47 (world xi test not included). It's an overused fact, but Bell has only ever scored a century when someone else in his team already has. That's not to say he hasn't even been in pressure situations and done well, but it's telling nonetheless. Clarke has a flattering average of 47, Bell has a flattering average of 39.
I hate how when a player does poorly against Bangladesh his drop in average gets overlooked.

If a player does terrific against them I can understand it not counting, but not the other way.

Bangladeshi bowlers have feelings too. :)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I don't think anyone's claiming they don't have feelings, but the point is that you can't have it both ways. Either Bangladesh are worthy of playing Tests or they aren't.

You can't pick-and-choose that they're worthy of consideration under some circumstances and they're not under others. It's all or nothing.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Will be very interesting to see How Flintoff's batting evolves in the coming months, since ATM him battting @ 6/7 is still a big heache.
 

Precambrian

Banned
Aussie squad for 2009 Ashes: According to the Independent, UK

Clarke (captain)
Jacques
Katman
Ponting (Ex-cap)
Huss
Watto
Huss (?) (Wk)
Mitch
Krejza
Tait
Clark
Warney!!!! :laugh:

The last one was gold!! Made my day!!
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Both have a reputation of being poor under pressure and whilst Bell hasn't shown himself excellent in these situations, I think it's only really true of Clarke.

Other than his debut innings, one innings on the 2005 tour of England and arguably his hundred in India just recently, I fail to recall a time he's scored runs when Australia haven't been completely on top. Obviously it's harder to do so when you're in such a good team, but when you combine that with the fact that his First Class record is pretty modest (granted, he's gone some way to rectifying that whenever he's had the chance lately, but still), the fact that I don't rate him technically against away-moving bowling and the fact that he's seemingly failed whenever Australia have needed runs from him, he still has much to prove for mine. At lot of Clarke's rating at Test level IMO comes from what he's done in ODIs and whilst I don't think you would fall into that trap, a lot do.

Bell also has the reputation of being someone who falters under pressure but I don't really buy into much. A lot of this IMO comes from the fact that often seems to get out playing "soft" shots and, to a lesser extent, the way he looks when he's out there. He's played some really useful knocks for England when they've been under pressure and they're under-appreciated because people remember the soft shot he played on 70 rather than the innings itself. His performances on the tour of Sri Lanka just recently typify my point. He's obviously underachieved and his tendancy to just gift his wicket at times when well set is a serious problem but he's proven more to me than Clarke as well as having a more distinguished First Class record, and I struggle to believe that he could maintain an average over 40 in a middle-of-the-road team having batted all over the place without playing his fair share of important knocks. It's really more a case of me not thinking particuarly highly of Clarke than thinking Bell has achieved heaps, though.
Id actually go the other way around. Clarke has played some exceptional innings under pressure. By and large his performances in the Ashes over in England were pretty good in conditions that were favorable for bowlers so I disagree that he has a serious weakness against the moving ball. Hes obviously nowhere near a great player, but in general hes achieved a fair bit during his career and has made some serious match winning contributions for his team

I cannot logically see how anyone can possibly consider Bell to not be a fairweather player. Yes a lot of that has to do with the fact that he throws his wicket away, but the fact is that he does it with such regularity that you simply cannot rely upon him to ever play an innings under pressure for England. Bell is probably the more talented of the two, but unless he makes some serious changes, I think he will end his career as an inferior player to MJ Clarke.
 
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tooextracool

International Coach
Personally Id like to see an England side like this for the next Ashes:

Cook/Strauss
(Like to see a different opener here. Historically the best opening partnerships have always had one aggressor in it, and having both Cook and Strauss is a recipe for failure depending of course on the kind of Australian bowling unit that turns up). Possibly Key?
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Patel
Flintoff
Prior
Anderson
Harmison
Jones/Hoggard

12th man: Panesar

Id also have Broad in the squad.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
The Independent has already decided the Australian Captain for the Ashes. (Ty BI)

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/the-ashes--how-they-might-line-up-1010910.html?ino=13

:laugh:
Pretty ridiculous really.

A piece of idle speculation and no more. And with some very ill-founded pieces of speculation in there.
 

four_or_six

Cricketer Of The Year

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