The Fine Line: Would You Walk?

[C_C]

That's very judgmental and I think this may have to do with different cultures. In England, Australia, NZ... swearing is a very liberal thing. You hear words like m*th*rf*ck*r a lot and they're not intented to insult, they're just very common liberal words. People in Yorkshire, in my experience, can't go ten seconds without swearing. Now I don't swear myself, but I'm never offended by it because it's part of my culture and I'm used to it. So if Andrew Symonds says "lets get these m*th*rf*ck*rs out." I'm not offended. In a country where swearing isn't common, it might offend some.

Look- cussing is not something that is uncommon with the youths in the subcontinent either.
And i am sure, you realise that cussing depends a LOT on tone- which is always hostile and thus extremely derogatory.

Find more than two scenarios where wives or children were involved. I can think of one with Glenn McGrath. Many others have been reported and found to be false. In fact there was a mtyh-buster thread on false slanders here at CW a few weeks ago where many supposed sledges never actually occured. And I want sources that talk about wives/children etc, not just mtyhs or "oh it just happens."

How about you talk to some of the players and ask how often the Aussie players bring in wives and children to their sledging ?

Comments about mothers may be common and jabs about your mothers are quite common in my culture and are said in good humour. For example, "yo mammas so fat" jokes etc. Nobody takes them personally.

Please dont patronise me about your culture. I went to a British highschool with british kids for 3 years and i've been in the west for the last 7 years (not to mention, childhood in italy for a few years). I am sure you know the difference between " yo mamma is so fat" jokes and " hey- did your mom hump a mongrel for you to look that way?" comments.
The latter is not acceptable behaviour outside of exclusive friends circle said in a joking manner.

You can sledge all you like, but it's only skill that's gonna win you a game.

There is no skill involved in abusing a batsman and unsettling him with verbal attacks.
Plenty of uncouthness though.

I draw the line when issues such a race are involved. To this day I've never heard racism as a sledge. Guys like Darren Lehman who have said racist comments didn't use them as sledges.

Talk to Viv Richards and ask him what kind of language Merv Hughes or Denis Lillee used routinely on caribbean players. Race comments were thrown dime a dozen in their faces.
And they are toned down a bit today but not non-existant either.

Understand that most sledges are just comments that come in inbetween shots and if they put you off, seriously there's something wrong. If you can't handle a sledge, you can't handle anything else. And you know what? I have never heard a cricketer say he went out because a sledge annoyed him. What does that say about him if he does?

Oh I went out because a cricketer said I was another left hander who couldn't bat! How would this cricketer handle public criticisms of his batting then? It's a tes of character, but all professional crickets have character. Most aren't afriad to get hit with a ball. Cricket's a big boys game where you can get hit, you dive, you take on heat from bowlers.

Well if you cant handle a sledge, you cant handle anything else. Therefore, lets cuss out your dynasty, your wife, kids, nation, etc etc. and threaten to kill ya. Handle that and dont whine about that then.

The above is pretty ridiculous, i know, but there is nothing that states where you draw the line with unpleasant nasty and totally uncivilised behaviour.

And batsmen go out because of them? Didn't anybody tell you about sticks and stones when you were a kid? If these things put you off then what are you doing facing a 150 mile ball from Brett Lee.

Whether batsmen get out to them or not is utterly irrelevant to the fact that it is uncouth, unpleasant, undesirable and totally underlying a lack of upbringing.

 

[LongHopCassidy]

I notice that you've shoeboxed Australians into the 'racist' demographic again.

Of course, it can be safely assumed that the West Indies never made 'white' remarks and were always the most sporting players even at the height of their powers, in a tight match.

It's really getting tiring the way you bring racism and subsequently Australians into your arguments, in an attempt to secure the moral high ground.

 

[adharcric]

I notice that you've shoeboxed Australians into the 'racist' demographic again.

Of course, it can be safely assumed that the West Indies never made 'white' remarks and were always the most sporting players even at the height of their powers, in a tight match.

It's really getting tiring the way you bring racism and subsequently Australians into your arguments, in an attempt to secure the moral high ground.

Seriously, when was the last time a Sri Lankan, Indian, Pakistani or West Indian got accused of being rascist towards white people?

I'm not arguing with you, earnestly asking you if the West Indians really did what you're claiming they did.

 

[LongHopCassidy]

Craig McDermott was famously sledged while batting (apparently quite obscene) in the West Indies, Adam Gilchrist and Rashid Latif had a spat in the 2003 World Cup.

Those are the most famous ones, but dozens of players have complained about this 'reverse racism' in the past couple of decades.

That's not to say that non-whites are the worst sledgers, but that it's not all Australians doing it as C_C seems to be emphasising.

 

[C_C]

I notice that you've shoeboxed Australians into the 'racist' demographic again.

Of course, it can be safely assumed that the West Indies never made 'white' remarks and were always the most sporting players even at the height of their powers, in a tight match.

It's really getting tiring the way you bring racism and subsequently Australians into your arguments, in an attempt to secure the moral high ground.

Its not a question of moral highground- i mentioned two players that i've heard of using quite derogatory language quite often during their careers.
And yes, the WI from what i understand, very very rarely sledged in derogatory terms.

 

[Francis]

How about you talk to some of the players and ask how often the Aussie players bring in wives and children to their sledging ?

I asked specifically not to do this. I asked you to give me examples, not pointless remarks. I asked links and quotes from played, not a pointless remark. This does nothing for your arguments.

Please dont patronise me about your culture. I went to a British highschool with british kids for 3 years and i've been in the west for the last 7 years (not to mention, childhood in italy for a few years). I am sure you know the difference between " yo mamma is so fat" jokes and " hey- did your mom hump a mongrel for you to look that way?" comments.
The latter is not acceptable behaviour outside of exclusive friends circle said in a joking manner.

Lol, I found that funny when you said "hey-did your mom hump a mongrel etc..." seriously it's all good humour. And I think what your missing is that everybody knows that on the ground, players are trying to get an advantage, hence it shouldn't be taken personally. If it were said off the field then that's another thing. Motive is everything. Why somebody says it is everything? That's what we're talking about, motive!

Your argument falls flat when you say "but if it's not in a circle of friends it's unacceptable." Why's is OK in a circle of friends? Because you know their motive. Why isn't is acceptable from somebody else? Because you don't know their motive and they might be racist or whatever. On the field we know it's just a way to try and put somebody off and shouldn't be taken personally.

And find one instant where a player ever said this. In fact pick one quote from the Australians that you found offensive that they weren't punished for. Don't make a pointless remark, get a source, quote someone, tell me why it was offensive. And it should be something more than simple profanity.

There is no skill involved in abusing a batsman and unsettling him with verbal attacks. Plenty of uncouthness though.

Agreed in that there's no skill. Like I said, it's skill that'll win you a game, not words.

Talk to Viv Richards and ask him what kind of language Merv Hughes or Denis Lillee used routinely on caribbean players. Race comments were thrown dime a dozen in their faces. And they are toned down a bit today but not non-existant either.

I know they sweared at them, and it was confrontational swearing... as in they were trying to intimidate them. But when did they cross the line. Quote something they said you didn't like. And no they were never busted or accused of swearing that I knwo of. I'd like a source on that.

Well if you cant handle a sledge, you cant handle anything else. Therefore, lets cuss out your dynasty, your wife, kids, nation, etc etc. and threaten to kill ya. Handle that and dont whine about that then.

Hahahaha! I found that funny. Shows that you take things very personally. Nobody means anything they say... obviously they don't mean it. To say your overreaction would be the understatement of the century. Nobody has ever legitimatly threatened to kill anybody. If anybody says, "I'm gonna kill you with the ball" they're idol words. In fact I've never heard any sledge regarding somebody's kids either. There was one that was proved false involving Rod Marsh. Some involving somebody's wives... ironicly they weren't made by an Aussie.

Seriously, your taking is too personally. More personally than any cricketer ever has. I'm still waiting for you to tell me one cricketer who complained the Aussies sledging caused them to go out.

The above is pretty ridiculous, i know, but there is nothing that states where you draw the line with unpleasant nasty and totally uncivilised behaviour.

Oops. I didn't read this part until I responded to the above part. Anyway the problem with your example is that if anybody did say "how are your b*stard kids"... which I haven't ever heard. It would be dealt with. The worst anybody could say involving killing is "I'm gonna kill you with the ball." Confrontation, intimidating stuff. Recently Andre Nel went over the line and all knew it immediately. So your point is wrong, and the publics reaction to Nel is an example of that. It's not something that's punishable, but certainly condemned. 99% of the sledges out there involve intimidation tactics, not personal jabs. Intimidary jabs that are nothing compared to the pressure of facing good skilled cricketers.

We could argue Nel deserved to be punished... and I might say he did. But the point is he's not going that far ever again because of the publics reaction.

I think you've read a bit too much into the Australians personally. You seem to think they constantly take jabs at players wives/mothers/kids. As somebody who does know and reads what the Aussies say on the field, do you know how many legitimate comments have been made about players kid? None that I've heard of... well I have heard of one, and that was proved wrong by both men. So it was false. A few involving mothers that were clearly in good humour. And I think one involving wives... which if I recall, was also in good humor. In all cases the game went on, no complaints were made and if effected nobody.

If it's so personal and offensive, why don't players complain about it?

Again, I think you've reading too much into this. The Aussies talk a lot, but most of it involves talking about the player and how easily their going to get him out etc. There's absolutely no point in arguing with you if you can't give me a source of them taking personal shots... intensely personal shots at batsmen.

 

[Francis]

I wanted to add that the recent South Africa vs. Australia series absolutely shocked people with how insulting both teams were to each other as the stump microphones were turned up full blast.

I have to say I was even suprised with how much talking both sides, especially Australia, were doing. Plenty of profanity flying both ways etc. And you know what, of all this stuff that offended and shocked people, absolutely 100% of it was strategicly timed pot shots, well delivered and insulting regarding only one thing. How they were going to get the batsman out.

With the Aussies at their absolute worst all of it was directed at how inadequete they thought the batsman was. Warne would take pot shots at Smith for being young and inexperienced... with inflammatory insult mind you. Andrew Symonds was up there in the profanity department etc. I could go on...

The point was none of them involved mothers/wives/children... I seriously doubt there's been many and anything other than credited reports, linked and quoted, talking about personal attacks like your saying wont convince me. I honestly believe you've got a negative imagery of the Aussies because a lot of what your saying can't actually be proven. The best thing you said is that there may have been an underline personal assult on Viv Richards by people like Lillee and Hughes... even that was a little flimsy.

There was a great thread here a few weeks ago that I hope you read that shows many of the sledges reported here at CW to be completely false. I hope you read that and realise all intensely personal attacks were actually proven wrong.

I don't know if mothers and wives are talked about, in my culture talking about them in good humor is common, so if they are I'm not suprised, not offended. However, reading what you've written has made me realise there's actually no credible source saying the Aussies talk about such things.

So you've made me even question if this actually happens.

 

[C_C]

Lol, I found that funny when you said "hey-did your mom hump a mongrel etc..." seriously it's all good humour. And I think what your missing is that everybody knows that on the ground, players are trying to get an advantage, hence it shouldn't be taken personally. If it were said off the field then that's another thing. Motive is everything. Why somebody says it is everything? That's what we're talking about, motive!

Your argument falls flat when you say "but if it's not in a circle of friends it's unacceptable." Why's is OK in a circle of friends? Because you know their motive. Why isn't is acceptable from somebody else? Because you don't know their motive and they might be racist or whatever. On the field we know it's just a way to try and put somebody off and shouldn't be taken personally.

And find one instant where a player ever said this. In fact pick one quote from the Australians that you found offensive that they weren't punished for. Don't make a pointless remark, get a source, quote someone, tell me why it was offensive. And it should be something more than simple profanity.

I find this line of argument pretty laughable.
Cussing from friends can be offensive too - its all dependent on tone. And no, just because i know their motives, i dont think its justified. Its like i shaft you and say " sorry, nothing personal. only business < Godfather tone>".
Its simpy not on. You are drawing a totally arbitary line with nastiness. By your logic, it would be fine to threaten a guy's life in the middle because 'its nothing personal- business only'. I want nastiness to be banished from the sport. I realise that is an utopian dream, but with apologists of uncouth behaviour like you around, its definately not helping.
Sports is for entertainment. Period. And it is not entertaining to see bunch of people abusing each other.

Agreed in that there's no skill. Like I said, it's skill that'll win you a game, not words.

Then there is no point in abusing a player anyways, is there ? you are there in the middle to display your cricketing skills. Not your verbal diarrea skills.

Seriously, your taking is too personally. More personally than any cricketer ever has. I'm still waiting for you to tell me one cricketer who complained the Aussies sledging caused them to go out.

Many crickters take exception to it- they just bear it because of the 'image' issues. But it is not a desirable part of the game.
You fail to realise that your 'sledge to win' equals an 'end justifies the means' argument.
And if thats your stance, there is no reason why a player should stop short of threatening another's life or cheat on the field ( because by your def., its not cheating if no one sees it).
How sad indeed.
I am not taking it personally- i view uncouth comments for precisely that- uncouth. And it reduces your standing, doesnt enhance it. I do not endorse disreputable behaviour simply because it means winning. If end justifies means, i would like to see some 'dodgy cookings' and flight delays thrown in too...all in the name of 'mental degradation'.
You think thats a hyperbole - i see it as the same stuff down the slippery slope.

 

[Francis]

I just finished my reply and then deliberately deleted it for a simple reason.

You did not find one credible source saying the Aussies ever talked about a cricketers wife or mother etc. Like I said, 100% of the offensive material in South Africa was cricket-based.

Also your going overboard saying a cricketer can threaten somebody's life. Obviously that never happened not will that ever be tollerated. So there is a line, where you draw it is up for debate. Some think Andre Nel should have been diciplined lately... he wasn't. But it doesn't bother the Aussies one bit.

C'Mon then, find a source where the Aussies went so personal that talked about wives, mothers etc. I've seen sources, but they were proven wrong.

I don't like the way Shane Warne conducts himself on the field with all the stalling, field changes and talking. But all of it involved him sledging somebody on their cricketing ability. Sledging was at it's worst in South Africa. Yet it was 100% about insulting their cricketing ability.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Bump: ignoring C_C's ranting, a slightly different slant on the topic.

As a youth team coach/manager, you are leading a discussion on sportsmanship and spirit of the game. What do you say on the subject to a group of 11 year olds?

 

[Precambrian]

Bump: ignoring C_C's ranting, a slightly different slant on the topic.

As a youth team coach/manager, you are leading a discussion on sportsmanship and spirit of the game. What do you say on the subject to a group of 11 year olds?

Ask them to adopt a role model, like Tendulkar or Lara or Bradman, and ask them to study their career and outlook towards life, and how they became successful in cricket, without having to push the boundaries, without having to resort to practises that put other players in the slightest jeopardy.

 

[Top_Cat]

Ask them to adopt a role model, like Tendulkar or Lara or Bradman, and ask them to study their career and outlook towards life, and how they became successful in cricket, without having to push the boundaries, without having to resort to practises that put other players in the slightest jeopardy.

Bradman a role model?



Bradman was damn-near universally hated. People had to wait until he was dead before they dared to criticise him because his reach was that long.

Role models are over-rated anyway, we only ever see their sunny side. Tell the kids to go through life trial-and-error style like we all do, figure out their own personal morality and stick to it. And, don't beat themselves up too much if they don't sometimes.

 

[Precambrian]

Bradman a role model?



Bradman was damn-near universally hated. People had to wait until he was dead before they dared to criticise him because his reach was that long.

Role models are over-rated anyway, we only ever see their sunny side. Tell the kids to go through life trial-and-error style like we all do, figure out their own personal morality and stick to it. And, don't beat themselves up too much if they don't sometimes.

Don't know much about Bradman, but what I know so far, he was completely against sledging and that sort of thing.

And Tendulkar's life for the last 20 years have been more or less an open book.

Lara's cricket ethics are there to see.

And I don't need your advice. Thanks.

 

[Polo23]

Never have and never will walk. There is generally so much incompetent umpiring that goes on against us in our grade walking would be ludicrous. I got given out when I edged a full toss straight into the ground, and the keeper caught it on the bounce, so as if i'm going to walk when an umpire gives me not out when I have hit it.

I'd never recall an opposing batsman who was wrongfully given out either, for the reasons above.

 

[Goughy]

Bump: ignoring C_C's ranting, a slightly different slant on the topic.

As a youth team coach/manager, you are leading a discussion on sportsmanship and spirit of the game. What do you say on the subject to a group of 11 year olds?

My point of view is that young players stand their ground.

This is combined with- never ever complain or talk back to umprires and respect every decision they make.

Also, if asked, they should reply honestly. ie "Did you hit that?" "Yes, Sir"

But still I dont tell them to walk.

 

[social]

My point of view is that young players stand their ground.

This is combined with- never ever complain or talk back to umprires and respect every decision they make.

Also, if asked, they should reply honestly. ie "Did you hit that?" "Yes, Sir"

But still I dont tell them to walk.

Agreed

Simply teach them to accept the umpire's decision

 

[Midwinter]

If I knew I was out, eg bowled or caught or run out, I would walk. If I didn't know I would wait on the umpires decision.

its a game, but it also tells you about a persons character.

 

[Richard]

Bump: ignoring C_C's ranting, a slightly different slant on the topic.

As a youth team coach/manager, you are leading a discussion on sportsmanship and spirit of the game. What do you say on the subject to a group of 11 year olds?

I'd say "you nick one and you know it's caught, you should walk off" myself. If they end-up international cricketers one day (which is a tadge unlikely in almost all cases, obviously) then they can make their own decisions about what to do there.

 

[zaremba]

I don't particularly care if someone isn't a walker. But if you decide to stay put when you know you're out, then you should take it with good grace when you subsequently get a bad piece of luck. This seems to me to be pretty basic stuff but it appeared to have escaped Ricky Ponting in the home Test series v India.

 

[Richard]

In my experience it escapes all non-walkers. Non-walkers in my experience are batsmen who think they're entitled to whatever good fortune comes their way but should never have any misfortune.