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***Official Australia in India***

Burgey

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A lot of the time HE as it hitting the very outside edge of the leg stump, all the commentators agreed 'the umpire could not give that out'

Will all that change?
Yeah, but I don't think HE is used after it hits the pads, so if that's the case does the third umpire substitute his view of whether it's hitting the stumps, or is he obliged to say "not an obvious error by my compadre on the field, therefore the decision stands?"
 

Precambrian

Banned
How exactly does the decision work though?

Say you're given not out on a close lbw - umpire thinks benefit of the doubt. Fielding team refers it to the 3rd umpire, who looks where it pitched and where it hit - are they able to say, for example, it's too high, or if it pitched and hit in line, do they then reverse it despite the on field umpire having the doubt about what it's going to do?

I didn't see the SL series, so I'm wondering what riding instructions the 3rd umpire gets on lbws. Do they presume that unless there's an obvious error the decision stands on something like that, or do they presume benefit of the doubt and reassess the whole thing themselves?
I would say that based on my viewing of the SL series, the decision making of LBWs have more or less been taken from the on-field umpire to the third umpire. Though ICC guidelines say, "Third umpire has to "assist" on-field umpire, and final decision is taken by on-field umpire", for all practical purposes, it was like referral of a runout. And worse, there were even some decisions where the third umpire himself got it wrong despite the referral. But again, that was an exception and referrals were a success in total imho.

The Hayden dismissal might be an example to use in this instance - say he'd been given not out. Firstly, where at 1st glance it looked like it may or may not have hit him in line, would the fielding team go for a referral anyway? I mean, it's not an obvious thing like say Ganguly's stumping in the 1st innings or say Symonds at the SCG. Then if it's referred, is the umpire's starting point that the decision stands unless an obvious error so even if they think it hit in line they say "it's borderline so not out", or do they say "No, looks good enough for me, he's out?"

They need to set these parameters (if they haven't already) so everyone knows how it works. Like in the NRL over here, we have the video ref, but everyone knows the video ref is not allowed to look at whether a pass has gone forward, because of camera angles, so the decision making is taken frm them to that extent. Do they have anything like that set up?

I think referrals are great, but the ground rules on things like this need to be sorted out IMO. Anyone know if they've been set out?
Considering what I saw in Sri Lankan series, an aggressive captain like Dhoni, considering that Hayden's being such an important wicket, would refer it to the third umpire. And the third umpire would tell the on-field umpire that

1. It was not a no-ball
2. It pitched in line and hit him in line.
3. The bounce factor is okay.

So he;d be given out!

Also note that the third umpire does have access to hawk-eye only upto the moment of impact. He doesnt have access to the "projected path" of the ball after the moment of impact.
 

Top_Cat

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Also note that the third umpire does have access to hawk-eye only upto the moment of impact. He doesnt have access to the "projected path" of the ball after the moment of impact.
Have read this, no idea why this would be the case. Hawkeye relies on calculations which are not exactly rocket science so I'm sure they're pretty accurate. Anyone heard an official reason why they're not using the prediction?
 

duffer

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Have read this, no idea why this would be the case. Hawkeye relies on calculations which are not exactly rocket science so I'm sure they're pretty accurate. Anyone heard an official reason why they're not using the prediction?
Because the makers of Hawkeye are yet to guarantee 100% accuracy. It's like 99.something percent correct instead.
 

Top_Cat

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Because the makers of Hawkeye are yet to guarantee 100% accuracy. It's like 99.something percent correct instead.
If the criterium is 100% accuracy, it'll never get used then. There's error in any calculation.
 

archie mac

International Coach
Yeah, but I don't think HE is used after it hits the pads, so if that's the case does the third umpire substitute his view of whether it's hitting the stumps, or is he obliged to say "not an obvious error by my compadre on the field, therefore the decision stands?"
It should only be based on

1. in line

2. no edge

3. too high

IMO
 

Precambrian

Banned
Have read this, no idea why this would be the case. Hawkeye relies on calculations which are not exactly rocket science so I'm sure they're pretty accurate. Anyone heard an official reason why they're not using the prediction?
Because the makers of Hawkeye are yet to guarantee 100% accuracy. It's like 99.something percent correct instead.
Yeah, and I regard that as ridiculous, Because if you are relying on the Hawk Eye to generate the path of the ball upto the point of impact, you should be able rely on the path after impact also. You cannot claim the technology is not 100% accurate, so am using only half of it.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, that's what he did last season. You really don't get enough bowling as the sixth bowler in domestic cricket to improve a significant amount though. I definitely noticed that he had improved his accuracy and consistency a bit last season and long may that continue I suppose, but he's still the sixth best bowler in that lineup and the pitches are not going to help him.
How is is McGain out for, maybe when he goes back until McGain maybe him & Holland can form the spin bowling combination for Victoria?
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
What they're saying is that, they don't care about picking the best players. Symonds has done his time and he's back playing cricket. He's not a school kid ffs. Just let him know if he oversteps the mark again, he will never be considered for selection again. If he's smart enough he'll know to stick to the guidelines. He's being paid as one of our top 10 cricketers, so he should be considered to replace Jaques. Quite frankly it's a joke he won't be replacing him.
Word out, having Symonds in India now gives lower middle that much needed counter-attacking effect that Gilly orchestrated, which along with hopefully Lee & a fit Clark to reverse swing the ball in the ball two & probably picking Krezja are the things Australia need to be competitive for the remainder of this series.
 

duffer

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Relying on Krezja in a test match in India would be disastrous. He'd be utterly out of his depth.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
In the scores Australia has posted, maybe.

In the results so far? It's clearly Australia's bowling. Australia's attack in '04 was superb and pretty much dominated for the entire series. Gillespie had his last great series with the ball, and McGrath and Warne were the same bowlers as always. Australia only got into bad situations when the batting failed in '04, and the bowling generally bailed the team out. There's no bowlers in common this time around, Lee's had a bad run and Clark has been injured, depriving Australia of it's two best bowlers, and it shows.
The difference has been India's bowling and Australia's batting in the second test. The pitch had nothing in it and the game was destined for a draw. Australia managed to retrict India to 469 on a wicket where 600 wasn't impossible. Then, they struggled against the Indian bowling being all out for a low total they had no business being being outfoxed by the likes of Mishra who bowled very well.
 
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Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Absolutely loved the BLee-Ponting argument. It's always easy to be 'mentally tough' and praise 'teamwork and selflessness' when you're winning.
:laugh:

Yeah, at least they did something in the Test to add some interest from an Australian point of view. I'm looking forward to seeing the highlights. India have been far too good in this match, so I think Ponting and Lee did the right thing in arguing with each other and going for an easy victory. India would have undoubtedly won the debate too.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
I think on replay it was out, but I tend to go with what I think live, and lets face it that is what the umpire has to do, and I thought there was no way they would give that as out.
That's an odd thing to say. If it was out after watching on replay, then he should have been given out.

It doesn't matter how it looked. Either you're out or you're not. If you are, then you should be given. If you are out, and are not given, then it's a mistake that should be corrected.

Besides watching on TV is a completely different perspective than watching it from the umpire's angle.

Because the makers of Hawkeye are yet to guarantee 100% accuracy. It's like 99.something percent correct instead.
Yea, basically, it's many times more accurate than 50 year old tired eyes who've been out in the sun all day, but because umpires have this holy place in cricket, we must not do anything to infringe on their God given right to lord over every aspect of a cricket match.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Son of Coco,

I was wondering why you were jumping around with the 'annoy' thing, so i decided to look some of your posts and may be i got the answer,

Son of Coco laughing at Zaheer

so when I say the below, i guess its annoying

"another example of your amusing post was when you probably saw Ponting's genius in his comment for Zak .... may be forgetthing that his remarks for Zak applies to him as well as he has done nothing in India so far .... and Zak 'unsual' perfo was much better than his 'unsual' perfo too .... that was pretty ironic for both Ponting and those who saw genius in his comment"

case closed
You obviously didn't look hard enough. You only had to read the next couple to get the context right.

I hope you got warned for the 'Son of ****' thing too...if not, then you can blow me.

Edit: If you were then you can ignore that last comment :happy:
 
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dontcloseyoureyes

BARNES OUT
Besides watching on TV is a completely different perspective than watching it from the umpire's angle.
Having done a lot of umpiring, I can say that whilst this is certainly true, it's not as true as you would think (IMO, anyway). Things are the same except you're obviously closer. You have the same angles and it's the same amount of time available to you. Being closer you're more influenced by how far down the pitch the batsman is, though. The obvious difference is that you're watching for the no ball.

Having now seen it I'd have given it not out in real time, but you can't argue with that. That's why they're the best in the world (supposedly).
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Relying on Krezja in a test match in India would be disastrous. He'd be utterly out of his depth.
He probably would, but with our our pace attack not getting it to reverse, one wonders how Australia are going to get wickets.

Look i'd say let this series finish quick, it was always going to be tough even if Symonds & McGain had played. Losing in India wouldn't be the end of the world, already looking ahead to THE SA & ENG contests TBH.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Because the makers of Hawkeye are yet to guarantee 100% accuracy. It's like 99.something percent correct instead.
The all time classic hawk-eye extrapolation occurred in the 2005 Ashes

Warne clean bowls Strauss yet Hawkeye shows the ball missing the stumps

Unfortunately, as much as we'd like to remove human error from the game, that's part of the reason why the powers that be cant do it - it's simply not infallible
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Having done a lot of umpiring, I can say that whilst this is certainly true, it's not as true as you would think (IMO, anyway). Things are the same except you're obviously closer. You have the same angles and it's the same amount of time available to you. Being closer you're more influenced by how far down the pitch the batsman is, though. The obvious difference is that you're watching for the no ball.

Having now seen it I'd have given it not out in real time, but you can't argue with that. That's why they're the best in the world (supposedly).
Yea, I don't umpire at a very high standard, so I'm not the best person, but generally, the angle you view the ball makes a difference.

I usually bend over (:p), when the bowler is in his stride in to get my eye level closer to the stumps, so it gives me a better view of LBW decisions. I'm still not very good, but I can't imagine having the same amount of decisions right if I were watching on TV real time from a top angle. Of course, having replays is the main thing which would make the TV much more accurate.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
The all time classic hawk-eye extrapolation occurred in the 2005 Ashes

Warne clean bowls Strauss yet Hawkeye shows the ball missing the stumps
So an umpire never gives someone out when he shouldn't be? The question isn't whether hawk eye is perfect (it isn't). It's whether it is more or less accurate than an umpire.
 

Top_Cat

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The all time classic hawk-eye extrapolation occurred in the 2005 Ashes

Warne clean bowls Strauss yet Hawkeye shows the ball missing the stumps

Unfortunately, as much as we'd like to remove human error from the game, that's part of the reason why the powers that be cant do it - it's simply not infallible
Not good enough to discount the tech for two reasons;

1) That was three years ago. You think there hasn't been upgrades to the software in that time? I'll answer that; it's obvious there has because at that time there was no visual separation with what they should on TV between the tracked path of the ball before impact and the predicted (calculated) path.

2) Extreme values mess with any model because they increase the error associated with each measurement. The Warne ball counts as an extreme set of measurements and even then it wasn't off by much (couple of mm at most). For most deliveries, the accuracy would be pretty close to being spot-on.
 

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