Guess who's back? Back Again

[Richard]

Whatever. I'd guess had Geraint Jones spiffed that catch of Kasper, you'd said, "Oh that was just one catch missed".

Erm... yes, I would have. What else would it be?

Jones at that time had made a habit of spilling none-too-difficult chances. It'd have been nothing new.

 

[GIMH]

It's poor, unquestionably, and extremely disappointing - but only once did it lead to an incident of public embarrassment for the whole England team.

Yeah, but the fact that it wasn't a public embarassment doesn't meant that it didn't have a detrimental effect on the team.

 

[Precambrian]

That Flintoff's behaviour had a detrimental effect on the team morale was admitted none other than England Captain Micheal Vaughan himself. He was uncharacteristically direct accusational about that. And soon, Fletcher's revelations cae in that he was reprimanded on a number of occassions prior to that incident also.

However the bottomline is ECB is no PCB. There is professional management around. They cannot let the misadventures of one player hang around for too long to affect the quality of dressing room, however high the profile of that player be.

 

[Richard]

That Flintoff's behaviour had a detrimental effect on the team morale was admitted none other than England Captain Micheal Vaughan himself. He was uncharacteristically direct accusational about that. And soon, Fletcher's revelations cae in that he was reprimanded on a number of occassions prior to that incident also.

... But only once was there an obvious public incident of something happening which affected team morale, rather than an ongoing issue of constant happenings. Never mind the fact that in Flintoff's case it was simply stupid, careless errors, rather than deliberate selfish I-above-team mentality.

However the bottomline is ECB is no PCB. There is professional management around. They cannot let the misadventures of one player hang around for too long to affect the quality of dressing room, however high the profile of that player be.

I think you rather overestimate the skills of the ECB. Yes, there are good man-managers in there in places, Medha Laud for example, but the organisation as a whole often leaves a lot to be desired. It may be better than the PCB, but it's far from outstanding or even good.

 

[Richard]

Yeah, but the fact that it wasn't a public embarassment doesn't meant that it didn't have a detrimental effect on the team.

Well, we'll never know that. I doubt anyone would be overtly bothered about the fact Duncan Fletcher had told Andrew Flintoff to drink less often. If, of course, they even knew about it - I'm not sure whether he was told in front of the team or in private.

You'd hope the latter.

 

[Precambrian]

... But only once was there an obvious public incident of something happening which affected team morale, rather than an ongoing issue of constant happenings. Never mind the fact that in Flintoff's case it was simply stupid, careless errors, rather than deliberate selfish I-above-team mentality.

Shoiab's acts were also stupid, careless errors. Just that he'd periodically forget to take the anti-hangover pills too.

 

[Richard]

Well, sure, there was no shortage of stupid, careless errors in there from Shoaib too. But that isn't anywhere near as bad for the team as the stuff he's done which places his own interests above that of the team.

 

[Precambrian]

Scenario 1

Middle class family. Husband comes late at night. Drunk. Irresponsible. Beats up wife. Screws up a cruicial examination of daughter next day.

Scenario 2

English Cricket Team. Former Captain and biggest Icon goes binge drinking, meets accident and screws up World cup chances.

Similarities? Stupid mistakes? One-off mistake? I think Flintoff was selfish to put his addiction to drinking ahead of his team's chances at World cup. Going out at freaking sea at midnight pitch drunk on the eve of WC is an irresponsible act. And he was not a teenager but a bloody 30 near old. And a former test captain!

 

[Richard]

Flintoff doesn't have an addiction to drinking - if he did it wouldn't be selfish, it would be involuntary. He just, like many others, likes a good drinking session from time to time. The middle of a World Cup was a very bad time, of course, but there was no reason to suggest it was going to affect team morale. I presume he wasn't going out with the intention of capsizing a pedalo. If he was, yes, that was extremely poor.

Added to the fact, of course, that even if it did affect team morale, it certainly didn't make likely World Cup contenders into also-rans, as those same players had been rubbish for years before.

 

[GIMH]

Well, we'll never know that. I doubt anyone would be overtly bothered about the fact Duncan Fletcher had told Andrew Flintoff to drink less often. If, of course, they even knew about it - I'm not sure whether he was told in front of the team or in private.

You'd hope the latter.

That's not really what I meant. I was more referring to the fact that the skipper was getting trolleyed every night. If I was a junior player on the biggest tour in Cricket and my captain was doing that, I would be demotivated to a great extent.

As I said, I Fred, but I can't defend him in 06-07

 

[Fusion]

Asif is a gun

What does that have to do with my response??

 

[Precambrian]

Flintoff doesn't have an addiction to drinking - if he did it wouldn't be selfish, it would be involuntary. He just, like many others, likes a good drinking session from time to time. The middle of a World Cup was a very bad time, of course, but there was no reason to suggest it was going to affect team morale. I presume he wasn't going out with the intention of capsizing a pedalo. If he was, yes, that was extremely poor.

Added to the fact, of course, that even if it did affect team morale, it certainly didn't make likely World Cup contenders into also-rans, as those same players had been rubbish for years before.

I cannot imagine the depths of bull**** into which you go into to defend Flinoff's antics during the World Cup. yes, he was commitment personified in Ashes 2005. But doesnt mean that he need not be vilied for his terrible lack of judgement and carelessness, and stupidity, and rashamtosh preceding the World Cup. Seriously, did Flintoff really live upto expectations post Ashes 2005? After the Fredalo incident the sincere English fan would've been thinking, "Ah, this was the man who was given the charge to lead the team to defend the Ashes downunder".

Shoiab is absolutely no angel. But what am emphasising is that what Freddie has done post 2005 Ashes (ok include India tour) hasn't been much either.

 

[Richard]

That's not really what I meant. I was more referring to the fact that the skipper was getting trolleyed every night. If I was a junior player on the biggest tour in Cricket and my captain was doing that, I would be demotivated to a great extent.

As I said, I Fred, but I can't defend him in 06-07

You seriously hope he'd not have been getting as you put it "trolleyed every night". If so then, well, he's thick as they come. No-one can be doing that if they're sensible people who care about their health. It might be a bad influence, but I don't think it'd demotivate people TBH.

 

[Richard]

I cannot imagine the depths of bull**** into which you go into to defend Flinoff's antics during the World Cup. yes, he was commitment personified in Ashes 2005. But doesnt mean that he need not be vilied for his terrible lack of judgement and carelessness, and stupidity, and rashamtosh preceding the World Cup. Seriously, did Flintoff really live upto expectations post Ashes 2005? After the Fredalo incident the sincere English fan would've been thinking, "Ah, this was the man who was given the charge to lead the team to defend the Ashes downunder".

Shoiab is absolutely no angel. But what am emphasising is that what Freddie has done post 2005 Ashes (ok include India tour) hasn't been much either.

He hasn't "done post-2005" anything. He made one stupid error in the World Cup. Nothing more. I've never once defended that to any degree whatsoever, simply shown how it's nothing ongoing.

 

[Uppercut]

He hasn't "done post-2005" anything. He made one stupid error in the World Cup. Nothing more. I've never once defended that to any degree whatsoever, simply shown how it's nothing ongoing.

Didn't he get pissed with the Australians in their dressing room after Adelaide too? And show up at practice drunk and unable to throw?

I honestly don't think I'd lose any respect for a man like Flintoff, were I playing under his captaincy, for him getting drunk and falling off a pedalo, nor for drinking with the Aussies. But we tend to look lightly upon such things in England and Ireland, in other countries they do not. Maybe that's an element of what's causing this particular argument.

 

[Richard]

As I said - if he honestly did turn-up at practice too drunk to throw, that's very poor, as is falling off the pedalo. Nothing wrong with drinking with oppo in their dressing-room straight after a game mind. And yes, unquestionably there is a somewhat poor attitude to drink in these isles. I don't know that it's completely exclusive to us, but certainly from what I know it's a problem that's comparatively speaking almost non-existant in most of the rest of Europe.

Nonetheless, in part because of this attitude, I doubt any of Flintoff's behaviour would have unduly affected the team. Even the pedalo incident, as I've said ad-nauseum, the effect is grossly overstated by those who perhaps want to believe themselves better than they are. You're certainly right it's very possible that others look much more weightily upon such alcohol-fuelled silliness.

 

[GIMH]

Surprised that you don't think it would affect team morale Rich, if Flintoff really was bingeing every night. I'd be thinking, "how can he tell me what to ****ing do when he won't even remember tonight?" etc

 

[four_or_six]

How on earth can people be comparing Fred to Shoaib?!

Shoaib took drugs and whacked his team-mate with a bat.

Fred just got pissed. Daft but hardly criminal.

 

[Days of Grace]

How on earth can people be comparing Fred to Shoaib?!

Shoaib took drugs and whacked his team-mate with a bat.

Fred just got pissed. Daft but hardly criminal.

To get pissed you have to drink alcohol, which is a drug

I think we underestimate the danger of alcohol compared to other drugs to totally screw up your life, and your sports career.

 

[Top_Cat]

To get pissed you have to drink alcohol, which is a drug

I think we underestimate the danger of alcohol compared to other drugs to totally screw up your life, and your sports career.

That's a great point, actually. Alcohol is a largely accepted (and even encouraged by some) part of sport and considered far less dangerous than other drugs when, in reality, it doesn't deserve such protection.

Does anyone else think it could have something to do with how it affects things on the park? Alcohol clearly affects players to the point where they'd only be disadvantaged if they drank before playing the game. Speed, on the other hand, would most certainly give players an advantage if they took it before playing so maybe it seems more nefarious?