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Vaughan resigns as England captain... so does Collingwood

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
England made a big mistake by dropping Hoggard, he has bowled so well for them over the years, he has done well in most conditions, and he has been the workhorse of the bowling line-up, i think currently there is too much workload on Fred in the bowling department, because there aren't any effective bowlers in the English line-up who can share that workload successfully with Fred, so it won't be a bad ploy to bring Hoggard back.

Rubbish. He's a new ball/overcast condition specialist and hardly bowls otherwise. The only time I remember him bowling much when it wasn't doing anything was during a series in India when he frustrated Tendulkar with a negative line.

Flintoff and Harmison would bowl plenty of overs regardless of conditions, they are/were the workhorses. Harmison for instance averages around 5% more bowling per Test than Hoggard.
 

Barney Rubble

International Coach
Just my two cents on the situation given that I've been offline for the past two days.

Gutted at Vaughan's resignation, absolutely gutted. I completely respect his reasons for resigning, but whichever way you slice it, he's still the best man for the job, and we will miss him greatly.

However, the positive that comes out of this is Pietersen's elevation to captaincy. Yes, it's a gamble, but I'd be very surprised if it didn't pay off. Here's to a new era in English cricket.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
How can Hoggard have had a poor time of it in the last 12 months when he was our best bowler in SL? He had 2 poor tests at best and that was with injury niggles and what not.
The averages may suggest that Sidebottom was atrocious, but really the amount of drops off his bowling over there, I'd say he has a case. Bowled more economically than Hoggard from memory, and got through more overs

I am a fan of Hoggard, but really, in the last year or two in tests, he had a couple of great hauls (Nagpur, Adelaide) and a lot of mediocrity
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I don't think Sidebottom bowled better than Hoggard in SL at all. We all remember the catches Sidebottom had missed off him that series, and somehow forget the fact Hoggard had just as many missed as well.

Hoggard was heads and shoulders ahead of Sidebottom at Kandy (where just a single catch went down IIRR - off Sidebottom's bowling by Bell at slip) and at Galle Sidebottom bowled decently with much misfortune, Hoggard just about acceptably with much misfortune.

I really do find it astounding that Hoggard's Test career appears very likely to end with his 3rd-to-last Test being one of his very best.
 

Woodster

International Captain
I think I can safely say that I watch no domestic cricket, largely because I have very little opportunity to do so. Not sure if you have had the chance to watch Bopara this season or not, but it would be interesting to hear how many changes hes made since his last test stint. One has to remember that he also plays in Division 2 (albeit so does Shah), so its hardly a playground for the big boys either.
Think your under the misconception that when a player struggles in his first 3 Tests, that he needs a major overhaul of his technique! This is rarely the case, at times only minor technical adjustments are needed, if indeed the problem is technical and not mental.

The talk is Bopara has made very few technical changes, but is more positive mentally, and has worked hard on the aspects of his game he felt needed working on.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
IMO giving KP permanent captaincy in both forms is one of the best moves the ECB has made in a long time. Time to take the bull by the horns, take a risk and give more responsibility to their only genuine out-and-out star.

This Collingwood, Bell, Strauss, whoever-else rubbish gets England nowhere. They aren't inspiring, and English cricket needs a figure to lead them to the promise land atm.

I reckon KP will step up and deliver. His attitude upon receiving it has been stellar, and if he is successful his awesomeness will just grow further. I can imagine him raising his bat upon his first ton as skipper. Would be incredible. You'd actually want to like the English cricket team.
 
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Rubbish. He's a new ball/overcast condition specialist and hardly bowls otherwise. The only time I remember him bowling much when it wasn't doing anything was during a series in India when he frustrated Tendulkar with a negative line.

Flintoff and Harmison would bowl plenty of overs regardless of conditions, they are/were the workhorses. Harmison for instance averages around 5% more bowling per Test than Hoggard.
Hoggard's a workhorse for sure. You haven't forgotten his 7-for at Adelaide on the flattest of flat decks in bright sunshine? I thought the talk of him being an exclusively new-ball bowler ended with that. He hit line and length very well, difficult to score off and always a small threat even when the ball doesn't swing. Also performed very consistently, didn't have many bad games. Hard done by IMO.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
It's generally a waste of time telling Beevers that Yorkshire players are any good - and it's always a waste of time telling him that they're better than Durham players.
 

Barney Rubble

International Coach
IMO giving KP permanent captaincy in both forms is one of the best moves the ECB has made in a long time. Time to take the bull by the horns, take a risk and give more responsibility to their only genuine out-and-out star.

This Collingwood, Bell, Strauss, whoever-else rubbish gets England nowhere. They aren't inspiring, and English cricket needs a figure to lead them to the promise land atm.

I reckon KP will step up and deliver. His attitude upon receiving it has been stellar, and if he is successful his awesomeness will just grow further. I can imagine him raising his bat upon his first ton as skipper. Would be incredible. You'd actually want to like the English cricket team.
Either that, or you'd want to hate them. Can't believe the number of people who still hate KP, TBH. Or the number of people who believe that crap about him not being a team player.
 

Uppercut

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Either that, or you'd want to hate them. Can't believe the number of people who still hate KP, TBH. Or the number of people who believe that crap about him not being a team player.
English people are strange about hating people who know they're good. KP is, by a country mile, the best batsman they have, but they'd prefer if he thought he was bollocks.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
English people are strange about hating people who know they're good. KP is, by a country mile, the best batsman they have, but they'd prefer if he thought he was bollocks.
Thats a strange description.

I love KP. I admire everything he has done. Normal people could not have negotiated all the barriers put in front of him his entire career.

It takes a special type of person to do that and it requires complete and unwaivering belief in their own abilities.

He is also one hell of a batsman.

All that however, is irrelevant to the fact that I think he is a poor candidate for captain.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
England has to pick and stick.
TBF, we've been doing that pretty consistently before what will doubtlessly be called "Pattinson's Test" in a few years. I'm sure I remember reading that our six tests with the same XI was an all-time record. Can't honestly say it was a total success; we struggled past as ordinary an NZ team as I can recall more by happenstance than any sense of a team improving or growing towards something.

I'm all for consistency, but equally a test spot shouldn't become a sinecure either. There has to be some balance. For instance Ambrose has now had (or will have had) 10 tests, which I think is enough to form a fair opinion over. He's a steady keeper, but not amazing enough to mitigate his batting, which looks short of the highest quality. If he performs heroics at The Oval he'll probably be retained (as were Strauss, Bell & Collingwood when they produced great innings when their place was questioned), but if he fails we should look elsewhere (and hopefully not towards any bollock-handed, slap-headed Sussex keepers). If Tiny Tim can't handle the pressure that the knowledge his next test might be his last brings he's possibly not cut out for test cricket.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
The six-Test streak was unbeaten though, tbf. The only change needed was bringing in Flintoff for Sidebottom, this is said with hindsight, mind you.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
The six-Test streak was unbeaten though, tbf. The only change needed was bringing in Flintoff for Sidebottom, this is said with hindsight, mind you.
It was, yeah, but it was kinda like T*ttenham beating Middlesborough home & away and thinking it's next stop Champions League. The fact we were unbeaten was at least partly down the quality of the opposition (who in any case weren't flattered by the scorelines).

As I said, consistency is all very well, but I don't think it's necessarily a virtue in itself if players aren't justifying the faith. Look at Australia in 2005: they avoided defeat at Old Trafford in the 3rd test but, rather than kid themselves all was well, took the (necessary IMHO) step to dispense with Gillespie (a stalwart of the team for many years and series) when his performances had warranted the arse. & for an uncapped debutant too.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
True, but during that 6-match run, what would you have changed? Broad actually bowled okay in NZ from memory so deserved a chance again over here.

Bell & Colly, maybe?
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
True, but during that 6-match run, what would you have changed? Broad actually bowled okay in NZ from memory so deserved a chance again over here.

Bell & Colly, maybe?
No-one, really. I'm not anti consistency, as I said, just pointing out it's not necessarily a good thing in & of itself. No-one's preformances seemed to improve because they had that security during the run. In fact, particularly with regards to our top order, the majority of them (KP excepted) have just been doing enough to get by.

The fact that Bell, Colly & Strauss produced their best innings for ages when their places were in question might even suggest that a bit of pressure for their position is a good thing.
 

Jamee999

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, Collingwood's innings was 10 times more impressive because he'd been in **** form and was getting dropped if he didn't perform there and then.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
The thing is, though, that record is not one thing. Yes, his overall average is just 34 which is poor, but his average is 29 as an opener (almost all of which comes from 3 matches, Kandy '03/04, ARG '04 and SSC '07/08) and 37 batting elsewhere (which has come down from 41 in the last 5 matches.

It's as an opener that Vaughan's big failing is. He's disappointed as a number-three\four, but nowhere near as badly as might seem the case.
His record opening and at number 3 is not very different. Hes been just as inconsistent at 3 as he has been at the top and I would not be surprised if his 160 odd against Australia and a couple of his other hundreds at 3 made up the vast majority of his average at 3 either. Personally, there isnt much doubt in my mind that Vaughan wasnt doing well enough to justify his place as a batsman. He was, for 5 years though, doing well enough to justify his place as a captain and batsman because the side was winning, but now, rightly or wrongly, there were always going to be question marks as to whether he should be part of the side.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
The averages may suggest that Sidebottom was atrocious, but really the amount of drops off his bowling over there, I'd say he has a case. Bowled more economically than Hoggard from memory, and got through more overs

I am a fan of Hoggard, but really, in the last year or two in tests, he had a couple of great hauls (Nagpur, Adelaide) and a lot of mediocrity
Personally dont think Sidebottom bowled that well. You dont average 60 odd without bowling poorly IMO and I dont think his average would have changed significantly had those catches been taken either. Both bowlers bowled shockingly poor in Galle though, I remember Ravi Bopara coming in and bowling jaffas on a pitch where both Sidebottom and Hoggard took 1 wicket in about 30 overs.
 

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Personally dont think Sidebottom bowled that well. You dont average 60 odd without bowling poorly IMO and I dont think his average would have changed significantly had those catches been taken either.
There were a hell of a lot of drops, from Prior who had severe trouble keeping to the left hander, and from Bell who was shoehorned into a first slip in the absence of Strauss. As a result of the dropped catches, he had to carry on breaking his back on a flat, slow deck against a well-set Jayawardene and Sangakarra. I barely missed a minute of that series as i was bed-ridden with illness for almost the entire duration, and i have never seen a bowler's figures a more unfair reflection of his performances than those of Sidebottom's in Sri Lanka.



Mind you, Morne Morkel seems to be making a habit of bowling brilliantly for no wicket and awfully for several.
 

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