***Official*** South Africa in England

[tooextracool]

Yeah, fair point, I didn't mean to seem like I was criticising Collingwood. Just that Pietersen only deserves so much criticism, given that without his innings we would have crumbled into a pile of nothing before Colly even had the chance to do anything about it.

Pietersen played well for his 94 but his dismissal was indeed stupid and it should not go unescaped. I think dropping him is really OTT, but it should be understood that his dismissal wasnt the only stupid shot he played in the innings. He played 3 completely unecessary reverse sweeps and his dismissal could be traced back to that. Pietersen miscued his shot, only because he didnt get to the pitch of the ball. He didnt get to the pitch of the ball because Harris was expecting him to come down the track and play a shot like that (largely because of the shots he had played earlier). Collingwood's shot on the other hand was a calculated risk, it was certainly not something that Harris saw coming.

If Pietersen does not deserve a serious chiding in the dressing room for his dismissal and the events that led to his dismissal by Moores, then he probably will never get one in his career.

 

[steds]

You say that but if Collingwood had made 1 or 2 today everyone would be slating him and saying how he needs to be dropped... I mysellf still remain in the view that Collingwood is nt good enough to hold down a regular test spot..

Being pleased for someone who does well has nothing to do with considering whether someone is good enough to consistently do well.

 

[tooextracool]

You say that but if Collingwood had made 1 or 2 today everyone would be slating him and saying how he needs to be dropped... I mysellf still remain in the view that Collingwood is nt good enough to hold down a regular test spot..

Hes a damn sight better than everyone else bar Pietersen in the. Sorry, but I dont think anyone in the current England side has been good enough to hold down a regular place in the side, everyone has been poor to dismal over the last 1.5 years and that includes Kevin Pietersen. Yes, had he struggled today, I would have suggested dropping him, but thats largely because he doesnt have age on his side and for whatever reason, the rest of the batting card cannot be dropped. If England go 2-0 down, someone has to be dropped from this England side, and a failure here would have meant that he was the only one who could have been made scapegoat.

 

[The Masterplan]

Does anyone think Flintoff will regain his position at no.6 ? I did but I'm now doubting that idea due to his batting performance today...?

 

[The Masterplan]

Being pleased for someone who does well has nothing to do with considering whether someone is good enough to consistently do well.

Yeh I spose.. sorry

 

[grecian]

You say that but if Collingwood had made 1 or 2 today everyone would be slating him and saying how he needs to be dropped... I mysellf still remain in the view that Collingwood is nt good enough to hold down a regular test spot..

Meh, that's sport TBH. A penalty that hits the underside of the bar and goes in is a "great strike, great bottle to hit it that hard", it goes a fraction of inch the other way he's "a muppet who should have made sure he got it on target". Same with tennis players going for the line and golfers going at the pin.

The better the character the more it goes right when it matters, IMHO.

Colly's succeeded at a massive time for him and England, good luck to the bloke. Showed more bottle then most of the other batsmen in this side could have. I really doubt Bell, Cook, Flintoff or the current Vaughn could have done that type of inning.

Praise should be also giving to Ambrose who guttsed it out too, whilst looking hopelessly out of touch. Wouldn't of been surprised if Colly had got stranded after that horror over.

 

[zaremba]

Meh, that's sport TBH. A penalty that hits the underside of the bar and goes in is a "great strike, great bottle to hit it that hard", it goes a fraction of inch the other way he's "a muppet who should have made sure he got it on target". Same with tennis players going for the line and golfers going at the pin.

The better the character the more it goes right when it matters, IMHO.

Colly's succeeded at a massive time for him and England, good luck to the bloke. Showed more bottle then most of the other batsmen in this side could have. I really doubt Bell, Cook, Flintoff or the current Vaughn could have done that type of inning.

Praise should be also giving to Ambrose who guttsed it out too, whilst looking hopelessly out of touch. Wouldn't of been surprised if Colly had got stranded after that horror over.

AWTA - except for the use of the expression "done that type of inning"

 

[GIMH]

just curious, but how hard are you trying to jinx us?

Eternal optimism combined with no superstitions

Collingwood to ton up

Good man

Said in the paper yesterday that Big Dunc presided over 1 home series defeat in 14 attempts; if this goes south (and it looks v likely from here) it'll be 2 in 4 for Moores and his team hasn't faced Oz yet.

He's Steve McClaren of cricket: a mediocre Englishman who spouts inane management speak platitudes undoing the good work of an under-appreciated foreigner who the press never really got. Nice bloke, but out of his depth.

Not the first time I've read you saying that.

Got in to see Ambrose & Colly's partnership. Great stuff from those two, Ambrose has done exactly what is required of him so far. Just hope to God that they can get set tomorrow, see off the new ball and maybe add another 50-100. We're still second favourites, but it's by no means a long shot and even if we didn't score another run 214 is not an easy target, specially if Fred can get going again. If we get the target up to about 280 I think we become favourites and if we can inch it to 300 I'd be quietly confident. Barring rain, though, SA will have plenty of time and have proved they can bat with great discipline. Test Cricket at its best.

 

[zaremba]

Said in the paper yesterday that Big Dunc presided over 1 home series defeat in 14 attempts; if this goes south (and it looks v likely from here) it'll be 2 in 4 for Moores and his team hasn't faced Oz yet.

He's Steve McClaren of cricket: a mediocre Englishman who spouts inane management speak platitudes undoing the good work of an under-appreciated foreigner who the press never really got. Nice bloke, but out of his depth.

Your description of Steve McClaren is accurate. Your assessment of Moores is not.

One telling difference between them is that McClaren was a consistent mediocrity at club level whereas Moores turned around a pretty rubbish and impecunious county into the best club in the country. This was not the result of inane management-speak platitudes but by instilling some serious professionalism which put other counties to shame (and which other counties have now copied).

I've nothing against Duncan Fletcher btw - particularly on grounds of his nationality - I couldn't give a toss where the England coach was born.

 

[GIMH]

It was time for Fletcher to go. All good things must end and he went at the right time. In a way it's a shame the way his last couple of years went. The last true high was the win in Mumbai, and my favourite memory of Fletcher will always be him hugging Freddie after that game.

 

[tooextracool]

Yeah and that is what leadership is all about he beat Pakistan at home without Jones or Flintoff, and he did win Test matches with Saj and Plunkers in the side .

Yeah and he also failed to beat a very mediocre SL side at home that very same summer. Look, there isnt much doubt in my mind that Duncan was a great coach, he had plans for every single batsman and he did a wonderful job as coach. However, he was well past his shelf date by the last Ashes series and by the end he had way too much selectorial power than he actually deserved. Duncan for me was a very poor judge of player ability, and a very good one in developing plans and working on technical flaws of batsmen. My assumption on Moores, is that I honestly dont think he knows much about technicalities at all, I mean why else does he have a batting and bowling coach? Hes made some pretty dumb comments in the past and the only thing positive I have heard about him are his rigorous practices and fielding drills.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

It definitely was time for Fletcher to go. But he still did great things for the England side in his time. I'm really surprised no ones (in the media) mentioned the coach and his position. But then again is it really the coaches fault when batsmen smash short balls straight up in the air?

Anyway. Tom Moody (yes im biased) for next England coach!

 

[GIMH]

The issue in Cricket is so much more complicated than, to use the example everyone else has been, Football. If the football side underperforms, then the blame does and should lie with the manager. In Cricket, you have to look at the selection and captaincy as well, the coach is not solely accountable.

 

[grecian]

The issue in Cricket is so much more complicated than, to use the example everyone else has been, Football. If the football side underperforms, then the blame does and should lie with the manager. In Cricket, you have to look at the selection and captaincy as well, the coach is not solely accountable.

Hey, I'm a britisher and I need a scapegoat, and I can't blame this on Gordon Brown or Phil Neville, so Moores will do for me

 

[GIMH]

Anyway. The series is not yet lost. We were saying similar things overnight on day three at OT V New Zealand IIRC.

 

[tooextracool]

The issue in Cricket is so much more complicated than, to use the example everyone else has been, Football. If the football side underperforms, then the blame does and should lie with the manager. In Cricket, you have to look at the selection and captaincy as well, the coach is not solely accountable.

True. Also, its hard to truly judge the impact of coaches on a team. I mean no one here can truly tell what Moores contribution in the dressing room is. Most people can fabricate theories, but there is little fact to any of them. Therefore, the only way to judge a coach is by the result he achieves and that is rather unfair for Moores.

 

[GIMH]

Aye. It was fairer to judge Fletcher on results as he seemed to have a lot more autonomy. TBF the results were delivered most of the time.

 

[grecian]

Anyway. The series is not yet lost. We were saying similar things overnight on day three at OT V New Zealand IIRC.

Yeah, and TBH, this Saffie bowling attack isn't much cop ( which is what made the first innings capitulation so infuriating really), if Colly and Ambrose apply themselves and the proteas do their dreaded "c" word I'll be calling for a knighthood for Moores.

 

[tooextracool]

Well after the Ashes in 2005, we lost 0-2 to Pakistan (A series we really should have won), drew 1-1 in India(which was a good result given how many injuries our side had), drew SL 1-1(another series we should have won comfortably), beat a really poor Pakistan side 2-0 and lost the Ashes 0-5. Cant say those are particularly great results tbh.
England had a very good team before the Ashes in 2005, but full credit to Fletcher for instilling that ruthlessness that we lacked post 2005.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Yeah, fair point, I didn't mean to seem like I was criticising Collingwood. Just that Pietersen only deserves so much criticism, given that without his innings we would have crumbled into a pile of nothing before Colly even had the chance to do anything about it.

It's a fine line really. Because on the one hand he scored invaluable runs, without which this match may have been over already. But then you think that he gave away the initiative when, for the first time in the match, England was hinting at a driver's seat location. And he literally gave it away, facing the least threatening bowler in the series (including Cook) and at a time when runs were easy and there was absolutely no pressure.

I think the negatives of his demise marginally outweigh the positives of his innings. Consider that without his innings England would likely have gone on to lose this game already. But then consider that because of his shot England is still likely to lose, regardless of his runs, because he gave away his wicket when England was fighting back strongly. With him at the crease at stumps, I'd give England the edge.