**Official** Australia in West Indies

[Malleeboy]

Test followed by F/C for each player....

Player Wkts Ave SR
Symonds 22 35 79
230 36 73
Clarke 12 22 44
23 37 68
Katich 12 33 54
86 37 61

Or if India is the benchmark team for spinners then 2003/2004
MacGill 14 50 83
Katich 5 43 61 ( a good return from a part timer)

Both Clarke and Katich have taken 6 wickets in test match innings and their F/C stats are very similiar, why so adamant that Clarke is a better part timer than Katich?

 

[Top_Cat]

Test followed by F/C for each player....

Player Wkts Ave SR
Symonds 22 35 79
230 36 73
Clarke 12 22 44
23 37 68
Katich 12 33 54
86 37 61

Or if India is the benchmark team for spinners then 2003/2004
MacGill 14 50 83
Katich 5 43 61 ( a good return from a part timer)

Both Clarke and Katich have taken 6 wickets in test match innings and their F/C stats are very similiar, why so adamant that Clarke is a better part timer than Katich?

The raw stats don't tell you that Clarke's 6-fer came against India in India whereas Kat's against Zimbabwe, for example. I'm not saying Clarke is a far better bowler (we're talking part-timers here, after all) but he'll definitely bowl less pap and go the journey less often. There's not ever been a specialist left-arm wristie who's been even mildly successful for Australia so a part-timer like Kat has no chance; it's so difficult to bowl and the margin for error in line-and-length is so small, if you're looking for a bloke to fill in some overs, finger-spinners are the more economical choice. Kat doesn't even get a regular bowl with NSW any more and he's the captain!

 

[MrHat]

It's arguable whether he should be trying to develop in-swing full stop. He's a little different to Bracken in that he's yards quicker which lessens the probability of swing by itself. That Bracken couldn't consistently swing the red ball at his pace means he has little else to work with but with Johnson, he's a hit-the-deck bowler and really quick so I reckon, rather than trying to redevelop his bowling to develop a weakness, play to his strengths. Swing ain't one of them. The example of Glenn McGrath, dropped after trying to swing the ball unsuccessfully against England in '94, should tell people that trying to boost perceived weaknesses in one's game to the detriment of existing strengths just makes for an ordinary bowler all-round.

Mcgrath bowled very close to the stumps though, which opened up LBW for both RH and LH. Since Johnson bowls from so wide of the crease, how can he ever get an LBW to a RH without some decent swing?

 

[silentstriker]

The next year for the Australian cricket team is huge. I simply cannot wait until they tour India later in the year. I am already drooling at the prospect. I hope we prepare total spin minefields, and get some deranged Indian fan to break Clarke's wrist before the match.

To my surprise, even this series looks to be a good one and I can't wait for the next match - will watch the whole thing.

 

[Top_Cat]

Mcgrath bowled very close to the stumps though, which opened up LBW for both RH and LH. Since Johnson bowls from so wide of the crease, how can he ever get an LBW to a RH without some decent swing?

This is true and probably why lefties unable to bend one back haven't been as successful. He'll likely get there eventually, though; Pathan used to bend the ball away and that was about it. Different story now.

 

[silentstriker]

This is true and probably why lefties unable to bend one back haven't been as successful. He'll likely get there eventually, though; Pathan used to bend the ball away and that was about it. Different story now.

And now he can.....bend the ball away and that's about it.

 

[Top_Cat]

And now he can.....bend the ball away and that's about it.

Haha, good point.

 

[Malleeboy]

Spinners (especially part timers) have several differing uses in cricket....

Symonds can bowl spin/medium pace to contain, if your just wanting to rest bowlers or waiting for a new ball.

I'd agree that Clarke is more likely to contain and probably a better package as a part timer, and should get the ball before Katich

However Katich's bowling style is odd enough that if your chasing wickets on the 5th day and even if he only hands a couple an over but you've got enough runs to cover the boundaries he is going to leak, he'd still be a useful option for a few overs just for variety.

Or maybe my rabid dislike of MacGill is warping my judgement, I hope he does improve I just really don't believe he will.

 

[Top_Cat]

Spinners (especially part timers) have several differing uses in cricket....

Symonds can bowl spin/medium pace to contain, if your just wanting to rest bowlers or waiting for a new ball.

I'd agree that Clarke is more likely to contain and probably a better package as a part timer, and should get the ball before Katich

However Katich's bowling style is odd enough that if your chasing wickets on the 5th day and even if he only hands a couple an over but you've got enough runs to cover the boundaries he is going to leak, he'd still be a useful option for a few overs just for variety.

Or maybe my rabid dislike of MacGill is warping my judgement, I hope he does improve I just really don't believe he will.

Perhaps. It's true one should never under-estimate the value of a bowler who might get a few shock wickets. However, Kat should be picked as a batsman first and foremost with any bowling a total bonus. Can see Kat going the same way as Bevvo if his bowling is mentioned too much. Bevvo tried bowling more to get in the side as a batting all-rounder, got back in, his batting form quickly went south and eventually, so did his bowling.

 

[roseboy64]

I gather from the last few pages that MacGill was dire. How was JOhnson? Much improvement on the 1st innings, and did he bowl his annual inswinger in this innings, or is he saving it up?

Assuming Clarke is back, do they run with Noffke or Bollinger instead of MacGill and share the spinning duties between Clarke and Symonds?
And can someone tell us what the wicket normally plays like at the new Antigua ground (it is a new ground right, not the old Recreation Ground)?

Last match it was a total road. Litetally, almost. They use something that was left over in making a road as a roller. Something you can drive.

 

[howardj]

It's arguable whether he should be trying to develop in-swing full stop. He's a little different to Bracken in that he's yards quicker which lessens the probability of swing by itself. That Bracken couldn't consistently swing the red ball at his pace means he has little else to work with but with Johnson, he's a hit-the-deck bowler and really quick so I reckon, rather than trying to redevelop his bowling to develop a weakness, play to his strengths. Swing ain't one of them. The example of Glenn McGrath, dropped after trying to swing the ball unsuccessfully against England in '94, should tell people that trying to boost perceived weaknesses in one's game to the detriment of existing strengths just makes for an ordinary bowler all-round.

I take your point, and do remember Macca at the Gabba, early doors. However, I'd argue that Johnson actually does look lethal when he gets the ball to talk/swing in ODIs, whereas McGrath never did get it to talk much with the white ball and never really needed swing in his armoury. By contrast, I think Johnson may.

 

[pasag]

For the next game, ideally:

Hayden
Jaques (on notice)
Ponting
Hussey
Clarke
Symonds
Haddin
Noffke
Lee
Clark
Bollinger

 

[Laurrz]

AWTA

looks a way better team tbh

probably keep Johnson - two debutants in one game a bit much.. i think he will improve as the series goes on

 

[biased indian]

For the next game, ideally:

Hayden
Jaques (on notice)
Ponting
Hussey
Clarke
Symonds
Haddin
Noffke
Lee
Clark
Bollinger

how good are they....Noffke didn't impress much.in the t20's i saw him...was wayward...this test match was a good example of the fact that Australia will struggle with bowlers particularly oversea and in particular sub continent and WI....they surelly will need a FIT lee and Clark for at least some time now

 

[Laurrz]

how good are they....Noffke didn't impress much.in the t20's i saw him...was wayward...this test match was a good example of the fact that Australia will struggle with bowlers particularly oversea and in particular sub continent and WI....they surelly will need a FIT lee and Clark for at least some time now

Nah Noffers is good enough

he doesnt do too well in the shorter forms for Qld as well iidr... he is very much a longer form bowler...
same goes for Bollinger really

this is irrelevent - but i just noticed something... when i saw Haddin keep i felt like i was watching NSW at full strength play at times
and if Bollinger replaces Johnson... i think it could be said that NSW actually have a stronger bowling attack than Australia (if they keep picking MacGill)

Australia - Lee Clark Bollinger MacGill Symonds
NSW - Lee Clark Bracken MacGill Casson (funny how they rather pick Bracken than Bollinger and Aus rather Bollinger than Bracken!)

heh

 

[Ikki]

Not sure anyone mentioned this, but Symonds' 79 is more than double the 2nd highest score in the 2nd innings.

 

[biased indian]

and how many batsmen are there from NSW???

NSW is where sydney is rite or is it Melbourne ???

 

[pasag]

how good are they....Noffke didn't impress much.in the t20's i saw him...was wayward...this test match was a good example of the fact that Australia will struggle with bowlers particularly oversea and in particular sub continent and WI....they surelly will need a FIT lee and Clark for at least some time now

Shouldn't make too many decsions based on T20 matches and how many overs did he bowl in total, 4?

Averaged 21 with the ball and 46 with the bat last season in FC.

 

[Laurrz]

and how many batsmen are there from NSW???

NSW is where sydney is rite or is it Melbourne ???

Jaques Katich Clarke and Haddin are from NSW....yea its where Sydney is

 

[biased indian]

Shouldn't make too many decsions based on T20 matches and how many overs did he bowl in total, 4?

Averaged 21 with the ball and 46 with the bat last season in FC.

But i have a feeling he ..will struggle at the highest level..didnt see the confidence..aussie test players seems to have