**Official** New Zealand in England

[Leslie1]

The question is, is it either all swing or its advantage to the batsmen on English wickets? Someone like Steyn or Bond probably don't need swing to get batsmen out right?

Or is that not the case at all with the wickets over there? I've always thought Martin is a journeyman bowler come good in the later part of his career. I've also always wondered why we are placing the "main strike bowler" tag to him just because we do not have any other bowler up to his consistency this summer.

PrinceEWS: Yah I'm actually a freelance comic artist and illustrator working in the films' industry. I've been working on a comic about cricket however, and expect to begin production soon. Here's my portfolio () unashamed plug: allblacklineout.com

 

[Richard]

The question is, is it either all swing or its advantage to the batsmen on English wickets?

Not neccessarily, but swing has usually been a potent weapon in this country, and if if all goes well that will once more be the case in 2008. It goes without saying that the more the ball swings, the better the bowlers' chances get, but top-class bowlers can get something out of any pitch even if the ball doesn't swing.

Someone like Steyn or Bond probably don't need swing to get batsmen out right?

Nah, Steyn and Bond are both hugely dependant on swing. Neither exactly have great height, and as such they can give away lots of runs (even Bond who can of times bowl excellent areas) if there's no swing. Yet their low trajectory makes them incredibly dangerous if the swing is there.

Or is that not the case at all with the wickets over there?

There's the potential for huge variance, and not just at Trent Bridge. One ground can be flat as a pancake; the next can be a green seamer.

I've always thought Martin is a journeyman bowler come good in the later part of his career. I've also always wondered why we are placing the "main strike bowler" tag to him just because we do not have any other bowler up to his consistency this summer.

Don't know enough about the NZ domestic scene to know how many teams Martin's played for, but even his "coming good" hasn't really been that good. As I say - he's done decently the last 2 or 3 seasons, but even then NZ have hardly played any Test cricket. So I'd never rate Martin terribly highly TBH.

 

[Leslie1]

Nah, Steyn and Bond are both hugely dependant on swing. Neither exactly have great height, and as such they can give away lots of runs (even Bond who can of times bowl excellent areas) if there's no swing. Yet their low trajectory makes them incredibly dangerous if the swing is there.

Is that maybe why someone like Anderson, Gillespie (very short), Darren Gough and other short bowlers do have problems with consistency. Their low trajectory means that they take bounce out of the equation so easier to read if the ball is not swinging?

Is this a 'truth' or a trend with shorter built fast-mediums?

I like Curtly A type bowler, tall and can bowl crazy bounces. I felt that Ishant Sharma benefits from this height. Southee is quite tall as well so he also benefits despite the current lack of pace. Tall bowlers can get away with medium pace whereas short stocky bowlers need to be fast to be on par with tall bowlers?

 

[Days of Grace]

Three monstrous batting collapses inside one session will mean three test losses for NZ in the test series. The only thing surer is that we are all going to die one day.

 

[Retox]

Three monstrous batting collapses inside one session will mean three test losses for NZ in the test series. The only thing surer is that we are all going to die one day.

Do you even like the blackcaps?

 

[Days of Grace]

i do lad, but i has seen too much **** lately and thus i am now an old cynical alchoholic. Watching them throughout the Bracewell era will do that to you.

 

[Retox]

i do lad, but i has seen too much **** lately and thus i am now an old cynical alchoholic. Watching them throughout the Bracewell era will do that to you.

Get over it. If maybe the so called fans (you) showed faith in them instead of back stabbing them every chance you get maybe that would help. The black caps don't need fans like you.

 

[Days of Grace]

I have shown faith darling, I have been watching since 1993, and it is not the player's fault. It is the coaching and the administration, since 2004, that is ****ing things up big time.

We have lost a big core of players needleesly because of the munters running things from on top.

 

[Bahnz]

I have shown faith darling, I have been watching since 1993, and it is not the player's fault. It is the coaching and the administration, since 2004, that is ****ing things up big time.

We have lost a big core of players needleesly because of the munters running things from on top.

That is a weak, weak excuse. The coaches and administrators didn't shackle their legs or force them to wear blind folds while batting. As for players retiring because of the men running the game... Astle is 36, Cairns 37, Richardson 35, Fleming 35 etc. Astle would've left after the WC no matter what. Cairns and Richardson went of their own accord. Fleming, had he retained the captaincy, may have hung around for another 12 months, but really...so what? Only McMillan (31), Styris (32) and Adams (useless) can be said to have left while still having a lot left to offer, and in McMillan's case the issue was down to money and health issues, rather than being driven out of the side by the moustache twirling connivers in the dressing room. Styris was lured out by the money and a string of rubbish performances for the test side only made the decision easier. Even without the Indian cricket leagues, none of those players would be sticking around for much longer anyway.

Face up to it. It IS the player's fault, cause at the end of the day, no matter what's going on behind the scenes, its what's going on the middle that counts. I get sick and tired of all this incessant "Bracewell is the scum of the earth" talk on these boards (whom I noticed were mysteriously absent after we beat England in the first test). Yes he's a moron when placed in front of a press conference, and a fairly ordinary test match coach, but he can't take all the blame for what's happening. A large part of it just comes down to our tried and trusted players coming to the end of their careers, and their replacements not being up to it, whether that be because of mental or technical deficiencies. But even given this, a number of the performances (especially from the batsmen) that we've been subjected to over the last two or three years have been so spineless and pathetic, that to blame the coach is letting the players off far too easy.

 

[Richard]

Is that maybe why someone like Anderson, Gillespie (very short), Darren Gough and other short bowlers do have problems with consistency. Their low trajectory means that they take bounce out of the equation so easier to read if the ball is not swinging?

Is this a 'truth' or a trend with shorter built fast-mediums?

I like Curtly A type bowler, tall and can bowl crazy bounces. I felt that Ishant Sharma benefits from this height. Southee is quite tall as well so he also benefits despite the current lack of pace. Tall bowlers can get away with medium pace whereas short stocky bowlers need to be fast to be on par with tall bowlers?

Height is a huge, huge advantage as a seam-bowler (well, as a spinner too, but there's far less good ones of those). Shorter bowlers will always have the problems that they have a much smaller margin-for-error in length - they slip onto the bat far more easily than taller bowlers. They're dependant on sideways movement both to attack and defend. I myself have this very problem, and I'm even shorter than the above mentioned bowlers.

Only a very, very small number of "short" bowlers have even managed to be good Test bowlers - Darren Gough being a prime example. A tinier number still have managed to be fron the top bracket. In fact, Malcolm Marshall is the only one who ever comes to mind, and he was so good he turned the low trajectory to his advantage and became very possibly the greatest seam-bowler who ever lived.

 

[Flem274*]

DoG, where did the smart knowledgeable poster you used to be go? You've gone emo!

 

[Richard]

Don't worry, the old does that to so many of us.

 

[Flem274*]

Don't worry, the old does that to so many of us.

Meh, stupid way of being drunk. I get very hyperactive whilst drinking, bet that shocks you.

 

[BC_fan_abored]

That is a weak, weak excuse. The coaches and administrators didn't shackle their legs or force them to wear blind folds while batting. As for players retiring because of the men running the game... Astle is 36, Cairns 37, Richardson 35, Fleming 35 etc. Astle would've left after the WC no matter what. Cairns and Richardson went of their own accord. Fleming, had he retained the captaincy, may have hung around for another 12 months, but really...so what? Only McMillan (31), Styris (32) and Adams (useless) can be said to have left while still having a lot left to offer, and in McMillan's case the issue was down to money and health issues, rather than being driven out of the side by the moustache twirling connivers in the dressing room. Styris was lured out by the money and a string of rubbish performances for the test side only made the decision easier. Even without the Indian cricket leagues, none of those players would be sticking around for much longer anyway.

Face up to it. It IS the player's fault, cause at the end of the day, no matter what's going on behind the scenes, its what's going on the middle that counts. I get sick and tired of all this incessant "Bracewell is the scum of the earth" talk on these boards (whom I noticed were mysteriously absent after we beat England in the first test). Yes he's a moron when placed in front of a press conference, and a fairly ordinary test match coach, but he can't take all the blame for what's happening. A large part of it just comes down to our tried and trusted players coming to the end of their careers, and their replacements not being up to it, whether that be because of mental or technical deficiencies. But even given this, a number of the performances (especially from the batsmen) that we've been subjected to over the last two or three years have been so spineless and pathetic, that to blame the coach is letting the players off far too easy.

I totally agree with this statement these were players on the verge of retirment anyway and there decision to leave can be put down more to the IPL/ICL than to anything done by the coaching or selectors. Bond is the only loss that could have been prevented if it wasn't for some bad management.

 

[Leslie1]

Try the ICC, I think we'll get Bond back once ICC realizes the stupidity of it's bowdown to BCCI.

Meantime, after following the FC final, and in general Fulton's form where he's averaged 7 over the last 6 innings he's played in the FC.........................

We cannot let Fulton start the first test. It'll set a bad precedent.

Batting wise:

How + Redmond (openers)
Marshall
Taylor
Flynn
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Southee
+2 bowlers

 

[Athlai]

Try the ICC, I think we'll get Bond back once ICC realizes the stupidity of it's bowdown to BCCI.

Meantime, after following the FC final, and in general Fulton's form where he's averaged 7 over the last 6 innings he's played in the FC.........................

We cannot let Fulton start the first test. It'll set a bad precedent.

Batting wise:

How + Redmond (openers)
Marshall
Taylor
Flynn
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Southee
+2 bowlers

Mate leave it till after the warm ups before we pick teams, for all we know Fulton could hit some runs in them and claim his rightful place back.

 

[straw man]

That is a weak, weak excuse. The coaches and administrators didn't shackle their legs or force them to wear blind folds while batting. As for players retiring because of the men running the game... Astle is 36, Cairns 37, Richardson 35, Fleming 35 etc. Astle would've left after the WC no matter what. Cairns and Richardson went of their own accord. Fleming, had he retained the captaincy, may have hung around for another 12 months, but really...so what? Only McMillan (31), Styris (32) and Adams (useless) can be said to have left while still having a lot left to offer, and in McMillan's case the issue was down to money and health issues, rather than being driven out of the side by the moustache twirling connivers in the dressing room. Styris was lured out by the money and a string of rubbish performances for the test side only made the decision easier. Even without the Indian cricket leagues, none of those players would be sticking around for much longer anyway.

Face up to it. It IS the player's fault, cause at the end of the day, no matter what's going on behind the scenes, its what's going on the middle that counts. I get sick and tired of all this incessant "Bracewell is the scum of the earth" talk on these boards (whom I noticed were mysteriously absent after we beat England in the first test). Yes he's a moron when placed in front of a press conference, and a fairly ordinary test match coach, but he can't take all the blame for what's happening. A large part of it just comes down to our tried and trusted players coming to the end of their careers, and their replacements not being up to it, whether that be because of mental or technical deficiencies. But even given this, a number of the performances (especially from the batsmen) that we've been subjected to over the last two or three years have been so spineless and pathetic, that to blame the coach is letting the players off far too easy.

Agree fully with first paragraph. But at the same time I get sick and tired of hearing words like blame, spineless and pathetic thrown around about our players. Perhaps Bracwell and co do get more than their fair share of flak for bad performances. They're an easy target (esp Bracewell). But do they get the best (or close to) out of our limited playing resources? I would guess no.

 

[straw man]

Try the ICC, I think we'll get Bond back once ICC realizes the stupidity of it's bowdown to BCCI.

Meantime, after following the FC final, and in general Fulton's form where he's averaged 7 over the last 6 innings he's played in the FC.........................

We cannot let Fulton start the first test. It'll set a bad precedent.

Batting wise:

How + Redmond (openers)
Marshall
Taylor
Flynn
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Southee
+2 bowlers

I think you're an optimistic man if you think the vested interests in the ICC are ever going to change their stance on the ICL. Even if the ICL fell over tomorrow I couldn't see them un-banning the players who had participated.

 

[BC_fan_abored]

Batting wise:

How + Redmond (openers)
Marshall
Taylor
Flynn
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Southee
+2 bowlers

ATM i would put fulton in at first drop and put marshall in for flynn (who in all honesty should probably be Greg Hay). of the bowlers gillespie's 6-for and o'Brien's 5-for in the domestic final have tipped the scales in their favour. It'll take something special from maso in the warmup's to knock Gilliespie out. Can anyone tell me why we can't get a good 10-for to finally put this issue to rest it seems to be impossible for NZ bowlers to have 2 good innings these days

 

[Leslie1]

I think you're an optimistic man if you think the vested interests in the ICC are ever going to change their stance on the ICL. Even if the ICL fell over tomorrow I couldn't see them un-banning the players who had participated.

New ICC head might be a bit more lenient?

ATM i would put fulton in at first drop and put marshall in for flynn (who in all honesty should probably be Greg Hay). of the bowlers gillespie's 6-for and o'Brien's 5-for in the domestic final have tipped the scales in their favour. It'll take something special from maso in the warmup's to knock Gilliespie out. Can anyone tell me why we can't get a good 10-for to finally put this issue to rest it seems to be impossible for NZ bowlers to have 2 good innings these days

I think O'Brien is a shoe in and its a battle between Dizzy and Mason to keep that last seamers' spot. In all honesty I can't see any of these fellas figuring in the starting 11, as Kyle Mills, Chris Martin and Tim Southee (or Patel) have the bowling side sewn up.

ODI squad far from finalised, and unless Martin has a shocker in the test series, I can't see any of the Wellington bowlers making the starting 11 in ODI.

And England, what'd you guys think of the new selection panel? Ashley Giles? :o