Lol i spose we'll never find out if he was ever gonna be a good test bowler with bits of his body breaking every now and then - mind you Gillespie has 11 wickets in 2 tests at an average of 25 - stats can be deceiving.
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**Official** New Zealand in England
- Thread starter James
- Start date
Flem274*
123/5
Hmm yes they can but Mark Gillespie has the potential to be a very good bowler. His 5-fer against the yarpies was excellent and he was a shining light in the CB series. Also in our home series against SL he was amazing. Going for an economy rate of 2 in a 20/20.
Before Haydens 180 odd he had the wood over Hayden a bit too. Sadly since Gillespies strange shoulder injury before the world cup he hasn't been the same bowler.
The difference is they perform. Sinclair doesn't. That's why i said it is not a problem provided he perform. But feeling comfortable in a team helps you develop that top 2 inches and also gives u a chance to captain as the senior man.
Styris, Vettori, and to some extent Taylor and How all are team players. They have good rapport with one another, Taylor and McCullum especially. That's why when Flem is off the field guess who jumps straight into 1st slip?
It's common knowledge when you feel comfortable as part of a team, you don't feel as much pressure as if you are "individualistic" to perform.
McMillan never gets dropped until late in his career, why? Because he's got good rapport with the team. So when he's not performing, he gets a lot of leeway especially when Fleming is fully in charge of the team during the Trist era.
Call it psychological whatever, but it's part of it. Take other sports for example, Terrel Owens has an ego beyond belief and when egoes clash, the team doesn't function as well, hence he got traded to the Cowboys.
Cricket is a team game. And when the team gels like mates together, they also will get each other's game up. I suspect Sinclair doesn't get support he needs to succeed, only the team psychologist, but thats because it's his job.
Styris, Vettori, and to some extent Taylor and How all are team players. They have good rapport with one another, Taylor and McCullum especially. That's why when Flem is off the field guess who jumps straight into 1st slip?
It's common knowledge when you feel comfortable as part of a team, you don't feel as much pressure as if you are "individualistic" to perform.
McMillan never gets dropped until late in his career, why? Because he's got good rapport with the team. So when he's not performing, he gets a lot of leeway especially when Fleming is fully in charge of the team during the Trist era.
Call it psychological whatever, but it's part of it. Take other sports for example, Terrel Owens has an ego beyond belief and when egoes clash, the team doesn't function as well, hence he got traded to the Cowboys.
Cricket is a team game. And when the team gels like mates together, they also will get each other's game up. I suspect Sinclair doesn't get support he needs to succeed, only the team psychologist, but thats because it's his job.
Flem274*
123/5
I don't neccesarily agree or disagree but do you have any evidence to suggest that Sinclair is not popular?
99*
International Debutant
Difference between Owens and Sinclair is Owens is good.
Owens is a different case though, he and McNabb did not like each other one bit, not sure about Sinclair but I doubt it would go into the hatred between McNabb and Owens. If Sinclair is to be compared to (and I'll follow the NFL theme) any player I would say Jake Plummer, sometimes good, often bad and not popular with most of the public and media.
Skippy does do some things that baffle me. One fantastic straight drive one second, and then a half-arsed hook/pull shot thing straight to mid-wicket the next. I've never been a Skippy-hater and have been wanting him to do well, but jeez, it's been about 7 years since he last scored decently.
Was hoping his natural successor would be Lou-ey Vincent, but I guess he had to take the ICL money.
Was hoping his natural successor would be Lou-ey Vincent, but I guess he had to take the ICL money.
More often than not rumors about team dynamics are true. Hence that's how rumors start. When Jesse Ryder came into the team, without really knowing him as a player, we already knew him as the dodgy alcoholic.
It's quite easy to spot the team dynamic whenever they field. When they crack a joke with one another, etc... when it's time to get serious, when it's time for a break. You can even try and see when they are off it, when the camera pans to the players how they react to one another.
I've seen Sinclair play in the national team since his 200 on debut. Granted, I was more a rugby mania than cricket fanatic then, but you'd still notice news articles when he's first dropped from the team, etc. Over time, you'd realize that he doesn't fit into that national team setup. It's such a shame.
I don't want to stir up another one, but Fleming's strong personality also doesn't endear himself to his teammates often either. Often he is seen as a clinical, somewhat cold leader to his team. But that is a non-issue, because without that strong personality, he won't have become captain at 23. And a fine captain he is too. He's mellowed out a lot as he wound down his career, maybe that's why he didn't take the captaincy drop too hard.
Another one, is Braces. He is the reason why the team's xp points dropped thanks to his personality, his way of communicating with his players, and a lot of players not understanding his reasons.
Styris retired because he doesn't get why he got dropped, Fleming is bemused by his loss of captaincy in tests, McMillan finally got dropped for once, and when Braces first got the job, all the experts reckoned Fleming and Braces would clash. And rumors are they have "disagreed" a lot behind closed doors. Fleming wanted to run a corporation of his own cricket team, and Braces wanted more control than Fleming is willing to concede.
Look at Fleming's career path after cricket. To be a leader consultant in a firm he started up and he'd rather do that than to keep 'leading' the current cricket team. I hope one day this is revealed as transparent as Astle's book about Braces' "management" skills. Astle didn't like the "team critique session" hence why he retired prematurely too. Cairns left the team way too early because of the same reason. That stupid high performance Aussie (forgot his name) put in a system to place the senior players under pressure and worry about their spot on the team. This is a high talking point in the news too some time ago, and it's the reason why our senior players retire WAY WAY too early. Look at how old the Indian cricket team are.
Cairns, Astle, Styris, McMillan all had at least another 5-6 seasons in them.
Oh about Lou Vincent, he;s another casualty from this current coaching setup.
COnsequently, that same Aussie high perfomance manager went to India, 'managed' to turn their national Hockey team from world beaters into a team that didn't qualify for world champs. What a joke he is.
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Halfpast_Yellow
U19 Vice-Captain
I absolutely agree and mentioned this in the other thread. The mismanagement of the Blackcaps players and team is disgusting and frankly I am astounded John Bracewell still has a job as the Coach. Who the hell are the incompetents watching over this ruining of NZ Cricket and staying their hand?
Just think of the example top order we could have had in the third test and on the plane to England.
How.
X
Fleming.
Styris.
Taylor.
Vincent.
Fleming - poorly treated by JB and selectors dicking him out of the captaincy, led to early retirement.
Styris - hit with the same bull**** that made Astle leave
Vincent - Terribly mismanaged and fell foul of the Bracewell ego.
Seriously, when you have a gigantic list of players who are perplexed/'ruined/shouldered into premature retirement by Bracewell's machinations
- Fleming
- Vincent
- Astle
- Cairns
- McMillan
- Taylor
- Fulton
- Styris
- Adams
Maybe it's a hint that the issues aren't with the players, but the coaching?
Halfpast_Yellow
U19 Vice-Captain
As Voltman says the rumours have always been here and there down the years. I've picked them up, and well Voltman is privy to a lot more detailed info than me...
Also it's fairly intuitive to guess and the puzzle fits if you think about it even without hard confirmation.
If you watched some Blackcaps games a while back, or maybe it was televised CD games where Sinclair took the gloves, his on field behaviour was nothing short of a little strange, odd tics, weird mannerisms. The commentators themselves picked up on it and talked about it. To me it came off as a "Jeez I'd hate to be stuck in an elevator with that guy" impression. Not the type of 'intense' personality I'd get on with at a glance.
And to be honest what other reason fits so well as to explain Sinclair's constant dropping from the team?
What Leslie1 said about the team needing to gel is so much more true than people realise. An extremely large % of sport is mental. There is nothing more worse than a disruptive influence in the dressing room to harm a team's chances on the field. (And I'll give credit where credit is due to Bracewell for knowing his coaching enough to keep Ryder out of the team for so long. Doesn't make up for all the rest of the garbage though.)
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Flem274*
123/5
Hmm all I have to say is: When someone writes a book on all this, all hell will break loose.
IMO Vettori should be allowed to assert himself as the boss and Bracewell can be the reassurance in the backgorund, backing up Vettori. I think Vettori and his senior players should actualy have a say in the selection of the side, though obviously not too much of a say. Perhaps selectors choose the squad, Vettori picks his team?
A question I have is: how is John Wright as a coach and a personality? He's been written up here but thats because nobody wants Bracewell.
IMO Vettori should be allowed to assert himself as the boss and Bracewell can be the reassurance in the backgorund, backing up Vettori. I think Vettori and his senior players should actualy have a say in the selection of the side, though obviously not too much of a say. Perhaps selectors choose the squad, Vettori picks his team?
A question I have is: how is John Wright as a coach and a personality? He's been written up here but thats because nobody wants Bracewell.
You've summed it well halfpast_yellow...
Jesse Ryder, man did the management get 'tricked' by him. Quite silly too when you consider he went out till half past 2 in the morning before the last ODI, and didn't bother to let the management know about it.
It's only when they finished the ODI series that he broke his hand that the management FINALLY grasp the extent of his alcohol abuse.
What I did not understand then is how the hell did they not get it? Surely the whole management team (which has too many hangers on in my opinion) should realize that Jesse is not fit mentally and needs rehab when he's not playing.
Interestingly both Sinclair and Ryder started their domestics in CD... but I won't go there.
Another moot point, is Gillespie's 'feigned' injury that arguably cost us in the 2nd test. He ran forward to catch a VERY catchable ball but because he's struggling with his thigh injury he didn't run fast enough to catch it. That was off Collingwood before he sets off with Ambrose for that defining partnership.
Basically, when the coaching setup ask him if he feels fit, he LIED his ass to be in that team. Now the management is pissed with him hence he's dropped for the 3rd test. I'm not sure he will be able to fight his way back in after that one. Braces, when he doesn't like you, (Adams comes to mind), it doesn't matter if you end up being the leading wicket taker, you'll still struggle to make it back in.
About John Wright, I heard that Braces is leaving to setup that English cricket academy after the series in England and that Mark O Neill might be taking over... is this true? I'll hit my head against the wall if this is, because he's the "batting" coach. Wright should rightly take over.
Jesse Ryder, man did the management get 'tricked' by him. Quite silly too when you consider he went out till half past 2 in the morning before the last ODI, and didn't bother to let the management know about it.
It's only when they finished the ODI series that he broke his hand that the management FINALLY grasp the extent of his alcohol abuse.
What I did not understand then is how the hell did they not get it? Surely the whole management team (which has too many hangers on in my opinion) should realize that Jesse is not fit mentally and needs rehab when he's not playing.
Interestingly both Sinclair and Ryder started their domestics in CD... but I won't go there.
Another moot point, is Gillespie's 'feigned' injury that arguably cost us in the 2nd test. He ran forward to catch a VERY catchable ball but because he's struggling with his thigh injury he didn't run fast enough to catch it. That was off Collingwood before he sets off with Ambrose for that defining partnership.
Basically, when the coaching setup ask him if he feels fit, he LIED his ass to be in that team. Now the management is pissed with him hence he's dropped for the 3rd test. I'm not sure he will be able to fight his way back in after that one. Braces, when he doesn't like you, (Adams comes to mind), it doesn't matter if you end up being the leading wicket taker, you'll still struggle to make it back in.
About John Wright, I heard that Braces is leaving to setup that English cricket academy after the series in England and that Mark O Neill might be taking over... is this true? I'll hit my head against the wall if this is, because he's the "batting" coach. Wright should rightly take over.
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Flem274*
123/5
I've compiled a list of batsmen who have done some opening in First Class cricket. Its not pretty. Internationals are highlighted in bold and young, new players have "(quite new)" next to their name.
Todd Astle: 24.54 0 100s 5 50s (quite new)
Matthew Bell: 37.12 100s: 21 50s: 50
Craig Cumming: 33.78 100s: 11 50s: 29
Martin Guptill: 22.59 100s: 0 50s: 4 (quite new)
Jamie How: 33.17 100s: 8 50s: 6
Peter Ingram: 27.81 100s: 6 50s: 8
Richard Jones: 32.49 100s: 12 50s: 29
Tim McIntosh: 32.64 100s: 11 50s: 13
James Marshall: 30.19 100s: 8 50s: 26
Michael Papps: 35.38 100s: 13 50s: 22
Michael Parlane: 32.07 100s: 14 50s: 24
Neal Parlane: 37.05 100s: 7 50s: 22
Aaron Redmond: 31.44 100s: 4 50s: 19
Iain Robertson: 50.20 100s: 1 50s: 3 (quite new)
Shanan Stewart: 33.41 100s: 4 50s: 13
Bradley Watling: 27.39 100s: 3 50s: 7 (quite new)
Brad Wilson: 21.43 100s: 1 50s: 3 (quite new)
Geoff Barnett (CD) has not been included as he plays for Canada.
Todd Astle: 24.54 0 100s 5 50s (quite new)
Matthew Bell: 37.12 100s: 21 50s: 50
Craig Cumming: 33.78 100s: 11 50s: 29
Martin Guptill: 22.59 100s: 0 50s: 4 (quite new)
Jamie How: 33.17 100s: 8 50s: 6
Peter Ingram: 27.81 100s: 6 50s: 8
Richard Jones: 32.49 100s: 12 50s: 29
Tim McIntosh: 32.64 100s: 11 50s: 13
James Marshall: 30.19 100s: 8 50s: 26
Michael Papps: 35.38 100s: 13 50s: 22
Michael Parlane: 32.07 100s: 14 50s: 24
Neal Parlane: 37.05 100s: 7 50s: 22
Aaron Redmond: 31.44 100s: 4 50s: 19
Iain Robertson: 50.20 100s: 1 50s: 3 (quite new)
Shanan Stewart: 33.41 100s: 4 50s: 13
Bradley Watling: 27.39 100s: 3 50s: 7 (quite new)
Brad Wilson: 21.43 100s: 1 50s: 3 (quite new)
Geoff Barnett (CD) has not been included as he plays for Canada.
Halfpast_Yellow
U19 Vice-Captain
Jesse Ryder to me comes across as an absolute meathead of the highest proportion. A huge contrast to most of the Blackcaps team who seem to to function with a reasonable amount of intelligence judging by what we've seen of them.
In front of the camera he struggles to put two words together. And the stories of his off field behaviour are so over the top ("Don't you know he I am? I am NZ Cricket!").
The kinds of people like him are an absolute nightmare for any sporting team environment. You've got your team who may not consist of the most supremely talented blokes but they're putting their heads down and working really hard to do well for themselves and the team. Then some wanker like Ryder comes in, admittedly he has a bit of talent but with an ego to match, who thinks he is bigger than the game and ends up disrupting everything.
It's a shame for everyone because most times the best thing to do is to cut the cancer out of the dressing room. NZ Cricket miss out on some much needed talent and a waste of $$$ poured into him and Ryder misses out on doing what he does best on the highest stage.
The interesting thing is most people who are selecting their fantasy teams assume Ryder is a shoe-in back into the national setup even after his injury, and rate his inclusion on his talent only. I don't think he is. Bracewell obviously doesn't want him there and probably rightly so. However as long as the Hadlee types are involved in selection who knows.
I'm hope Ryder can clean up his act but I've got no great hope of that going by his ridiculously worded apology on national TV.
That's true and it's a problem that has almost killed NZ Cricket. I'm sure everyone has seen the Bracewell media comments when he comes across as an absolute turkey. Imagine that personality behind the scenes with the NZ players. While he may be justified in kicking Ryder to the curb, he has a massive ego conflict over far more minor management issues with other players and that is not what you want out of your coach.
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NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Richard Jones has played internationals.
Despite his poor record, I like Redmond. If you were to go on talent and potential, coupled with record, Papps and How should be our openers. I wouldn't be totally against the combination.
Despite his poor record, I like Redmond. If you were to go on talent and potential, coupled with record, Papps and How should be our openers. I wouldn't be totally against the combination.
Halfpast_Yellow
U19 Vice-Captain
Papps has at least toured England before and will be better for that.
Not much idea what sort of form he is in though. I would rather take guys over based on potential and current form than potential and record.
How has most of the tools at the moment and just needs more experience and work. Bell is lacking in confidence and technique which is disappointing because he has a lot of experience and a great domestic record for recent past seasons.'
The nice thing about Taylor and Oram buggering off the the IPL is that we can bring more potentials than ordinarily would be justified, and play them in the 2 warmup games over there. Then may the strongest survive...
Not much idea what sort of form he is in though. I would rather take guys over based on potential and current form than potential and record.
How has most of the tools at the moment and just needs more experience and work. Bell is lacking in confidence and technique which is disappointing because he has a lot of experience and a great domestic record for recent past seasons.'
The nice thing about Taylor and Oram buggering off the the IPL is that we can bring more potentials than ordinarily would be justified, and play them in the 2 warmup games over there. Then may the strongest survive...
Athlai
Not Terrible
Maybe one day.
Getting his shot, doing average.
Looked dire last time but still there and there abouts.
Maybe one day.
Getting his shot, doing well.
Unlikely at best.
Could be solid yet not fantastic, unlikely to get another go.
May get a shot some day soon.
I don't really want to talk about it, but if he keeps playing well...
Crazy idea, how about we play him against a team that isn't South Africa for a change?
I doubt they would do well in the step up to international.
Could get a shot if he continues to do well.
Keep an eye on him, who knows more about this guy? Is he the goods?
...Who?
Will have to play for a few years yet.
Bugger.
NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Going on that theory, we should have an XI of:
1. N Parlane
2. J Marshall
3. Todd
4. Flynn
5. G Hay
6. Myburgh
7. Weston+
8. Southee
9. Hiini
10. Scott
11. McKay
IIRC, all under thirty, and all with some of the best records this season in NZ FC. Fills both 'potential' and 'current form'.
Halfpast_Yellow
U19 Vice-Captain
Don't know if you're trying to be smartass here or what.Obviously I am referring to filling the current 'problem positions', not the whole bloody team.
If someone is performing at the top level in accordance with expectations like most of the Blackcaps are, you don't replace them with someone who had a good season in the shield for the sake of it.
Actually I'm just going to stop here as it's obvious your only intent is to troll.