**Official** England in New Zealand

[Leslie1]

Vettori's stature as a test bowler.

 

[Retox]

I just need to know one thing you aren't trying to say Wiseman is a better bowler are you? I doubt that you are.

 

[Leslie1]

Nope. I'm saying Vettori's bowling pedigree is overrated. He doesn't deserve a place in the team as an out and out bowler. So why make him captain? Why send Fleming into premature retirement but stripping him of his captaincy?

 

[Retox]

Nope. I'm saying Vettori's bowling pedigree is overrated. He doesn't deserve a place in the team as an out and out bowler. So why make him captain? Why send Fleming into premature retirement but stripping him of his captaincy?

Who else could captain?

Beacuse Bracewell likes people who follow orders and Vettori follows orders. Remember before Bracewell Fleming use to run the team.

 

[Somerset]

As bad as Wiseman has been, at least he turns the ball, thus can be called a spinner.

Vettori is Chris Harris disguised as a "class bowler" and talked up by commentators who commentate him.

He's a negative bowler, and a stock bowler who doesn't leak runs. Ask him to take wickets would be like asking Harris to be a world class dibbly dobbly.

This is the same Dan Vettori who is currently the second ranked ODI bowler in the world? The same Dan Vettori who was the best bowler in the 20-20 World Cup just a few months ago? The same Dan Vettori who was part of the World XI in all four games against Australia a few years ago?

Sorry thats right, hes a negative bowler whos been talked up by commentators. "Yeah right"

 

[Somerset]

Nope. I'm saying Vettori's bowling pedigree is overrated. He doesn't deserve a place in the team as an out and out bowler. So why make him captain? Why send Fleming into premature retirement but stripping him of his captaincy?

Fleming resigned from the ODI captaincy so IMO it was actually a pretty logical decision to appoint Vettori captain of both disciplines (now all three disciplines). Just because Stephen Fleming wanted to continue captaining the test side shouldn't and obviously didn't persuade the selectors to split the captaincy for the test and limited overs sides.

Why make him captain? Well TBH who else is an obvious choice? Oram keeps missing games through injury, McCullum opens the batting in the ODIs and wicket keeps and full time captaincy could be detrimental to his game. Styris only plays limited overs cricket now. There isn't a lot left!

 

[Leslie1]

Fleming didn't resign, he "retired" from ODIs so he can prolong his career in tests. He got stripped of the test captaincy by Braces. There's a difference. The fact that he took it and didn't make a huge deal of it in the media shows how much he wanted to respect the team. Deep inside he's incested.

Judging by the results we've got so far from Vettori's captaincy at tests, which is what Braces wanted, we've lost 2 heavily and won 1 against a minnow.

Judging also by the fact that Fleming would have retired at the end of the England tour had he been captain of the test's side, and given how dire our batting stocks are right now, was it smart to tick our best batsman off to premature retirement?

Scott Styris retired from tests because he wasn't selected for Bangladesh series. They mucked around Ross Taylor getting into the test side when we all knew he should be there in the Bangladesh series.

Instead, after driving away all our main senior batsmen away, we get two muppets in Bell and Sinclair. Retro is right, Vettori is Braces' lovechild.

 

[NZTailender]

Some shocking calls on this page...

To be fair, Sinclair peaked in his debut (and a fine 200+ at that).

Scored a few more centuries itbt.

Vettori is Chris Harris disguised as a "class bowler" and talked up by commentators who commentate him.

He's a negative bowler, and a stock bowler who doesn't leak runs. Ask him to take wickets would be like asking Harris to be a world class dibbly dobbly.

If you've seen Vettori on a turning surface he does actually get turn. There have been quite a few times when I've seen him turn the ball more than any other SLA of recent time.

Also, negative? I think the perfect example of Vettori as an attacking bowler would be Perth 01/02.

 

[Somerset]

Fleming didn't resign, he "retired" from ODIs so he can prolong his career in tests. He got stripped of the test captaincy by Braces. There's a difference. The fact that he took it and didn't make a huge deal of it in the media shows how much he wanted to respect the team. Deep inside he's incested.

Judging by the results we've got so far from Vettori's captaincy at tests, which is what Braces wanted, we've lost 2 heavily and won 1 against a minnow.

Judging also by the fact that Fleming would have retired at the end of the England tour had he been captain of the test's side, and given how dire our batting stocks are right now, was it smart to tick our best batsman off to premature retirement?

Scott Styris retired from tests because he wasn't selected for Bangladesh series. They mucked around Ross Taylor getting into the test side when we all knew he should be there in the Bangladesh series.

Instead, after driving away all our main senior batsmen away, we get two muppets in Bell and Sinclair. Retro is right, Vettori is Braces' lovechild.

TBH I think Vettori has captained the side very well in the three series. The victory against over Bangladesh was a formality, though the two losses against England and South Africa could hardly have been averted if Fleming was to have been in charge.

I'd love for Fleming to have been on the tour to England as much as anyone but do you really think Bracewell putting Vettori in charge was the making or breaking of the decision? He stepped down from ODIs (and therefore resigned from the captaincy), so the logical decision to name Vettori as captain over all disciplines went ahead.

I agree that Styris' non-selection for the Bangladesh series wasn't warranted though he wouldn't be my choice for captain even if he was still playing test matches.

 

[99*]

Fleming didn't resign, he "retired" from ODIs so he can prolong his career in tests. He got stripped of the test captaincy by Braces. There's a difference. The fact that he took it and didn't make a huge deal of it in the media shows how much he wanted to respect the team. Deep inside he's incested.

Judging by the results we've got so far from Vettori's captaincy at tests, which is what Braces wanted, we've lost 2 heavily and won 1 against a minnow.

Judging also by the fact that Fleming would have retired at the end of the England tour had he been captain of the test's side, and given how dire our batting stocks are right now, was it smart to tick our best batsman off to premature retirement?

Scott Styris retired from tests because he wasn't selected for Bangladesh series. They mucked around Ross Taylor getting into the test side when we all knew he should be there in the Bangladesh series.

Instead, after driving away all our main senior batsmen away, we get two muppets in Bell and Sinclair. Retro is right, Vettori is Braces' lovechild.

When you pull your head out of your ***, Fleming was going to retire after this England tour then what does it matter now? At least now we can blood a new batsman against quality bowling without making them suffer against Australia.

TBH Vettori deserves the captains role, it was common knowledge that Fleming was going to retire and NZC decided it would be best to give it to Vettori while Flem' was there. Oh and Fleming has not been our best batsman for a while now, if you had been listening to the commentators you'd know who has been scoring.

And saying we 'mucked around Ross Taylor' wtf? Have you not seen how good he's played is this series.

Flem' didn't have to great a start as captain btw, 1 series win in his first 4. (Sri Lanka in NZ 1996/97), so I'll reserve my judgement on Vettori as a captain.

 

[NZTailender]

And saying we 'mucked around Ross Taylor' wtf? Have you not seen how good he's played is this series.

Think they were referencing to him being dropped, then coming back and being actually good.


But, Taylor played horribly in the series in RSA. I'm thankful he had time out to fix himself up. Playing against Bangladesh might've done more harm than good.

 

[Leslie1]

When you pull your head out of your ***, Fleming was going to retire after this England tour then what does it matter now? At least now we can blood a new batsman against quality bowling without making them suffer against Australia.

But we're quite happy to have them suffer against England? Why didn't we blood these guys during the Bangladesh series?

TBH Vettori deserves the captains role, it was common knowledge that Fleming was going to retire and NZC decided it would be best to give it to Vettori while Flem' was there. Oh and Fleming has not been our best batsman for a while now, if you had been listening to the commentators you'd know who has been scoring.

So he's in effect a batsman disguised as a part time spin bowler now?

And saying we 'mucked around Ross Taylor' wtf? Have you not seen how good he's played is this series.

My beef with that is, why didn't Ross Taylor play in the Bangladesh series to learn his trade. He is learning as he went in the England series. Consequently what was the side we put in for the Tigers... Oh, Fulton.

Flem' didn't have to great a start as captain btw, 1 series win in his first 4. (Sri Lanka in NZ 1996/97), so I'll reserve my judgement on Vettori as a captain.

He'll prob have the same record as Fleming in no time. Can you be honest about our chances of winning the test series in England? I hate to be a Vettori basher, for crying out loud he went to St Pauls only a few Ks from my house. Local lad and I always supported him when he sprodically played as an opener for ND in States.

 

[99*]

But we're quite happy to have them suffer against England? Why didn't we blood these guys during the Bangladesh series?



So he's in effect a batsman disguised as a part time spin bowler now?




My beef with that is, why didn't Ross Taylor play in the Bangladesh series to learn his trade. He is learning as he went in the England series. Consequently what was the side we put in for the Tigers... Oh, Fulton.




He'll prob have the same record as Fleming in no time. Can you be honest about our chances of winning the test series in England?

Tim Southee and Ross Taylor didn't need to be blooded against the Tigers, seems young people can actually play the game against big teams. Playing them against teams such as Bangladesh would work against them giving them the wrong idea how to play the game.

I would not call Vettori a batsman, but the fact is he's been doing a better job than most of the team speaks for itself, he can play both sides of the ball.

I've said the best NZ can get in the next series is a 1-1 draw. This is me being optimistic however. But I hope we can find a team that gels for the up-coming tests against Aus and India(?).

 

[Somerset]

But we're quite happy to have them suffer against England? Why didn't we blood these guys during the Bangladesh series?

We didn't blood 'these new guys' because with a middle order of Fleming, Fulton and Sinclair it was the best we could produce at the time. Remember that Fulton had been missed in SA, Sinclair had just scored 243 for CD and that leaves Stephen. Not a lot of room for Styris (even though I was surprised he was left out) and Taylor (not surprising given he didn't make any great impact on debut in SA).

So he's in effect a batsman disguised as a part time spin bowler now?

IMO hes as close to a genuine allrounder as any these days. Either way he is not a part time spin bowler whatever way you look at it.

My beef with that is, why didn't Ross Taylor play in the Bangladesh series to learn his trade. He is learning as he went in the England series. Consequently what was the side we put in for the Tigers... Oh, Fulton.

As I stated above, Fulton didn't tour SA and the majority of the cricketing public, and obviously the selectors too, believed he was the best option to partner Fleming and Sinclair. Personally I had him in my side to face Bangladesh. Taylor on the other hand, produced a couple of average innings in SA on debut. In hindsight, Fulton's form may have meant that including Taylor against Bangladesh would've been the better option, though the backing of Taylor over Fulton at the time was minimal.

He'll prob have the same record as Fleming in no time. Can you be honest about our chances of winning the test series in England?

At least I agree with you on that. Having Fleming would've been a bonus but even with him in the side as a batsman and/or captain, England deserve to be favourites for the upcoming series.

 

[Leslie1]

About Fulton, man, he is 29 now and if there's a place cemented for him for when Fleming is gone, he would be the finished article.

But injuries, loss of form, and some 'mental issues' with Braces (as read in an interview with him) meant he's out of the radar.

 

[Raghav]

Tim Southee and Ross Taylor didn't need to be blooded against the Tigers, seems young people can actually play the game against big teams. Playing them against teams such as Bangladesh would work against them giving them the wrong idea how to play the game.

I would not call Vettori a batsman, but the fact is he's been doing a better job than most of the team speaks for itself, he can play both sides of the ball.

I've said the best NZ can get in the next series is a 1-1 draw. This is me being optimistic however. But I hope we can find a team that gels for the up-coming tests against Aus and India(?).

Againt India We will surely win. By that time, we will be ready with the places for our team members. Indian wayward bowling will give way for us to come in to form....

 

[NZTailender]

About Fulton, man, he is 29 now and if there's a place cemented for him for when Fleming is gone, he would be the finished article.

But injuries, loss of form, and some 'mental issues' with Braces (as read in an interview with him) meant he's out of the radar.

Getting injured didn't exactly help Fulton. He's been in bad form of late but I regard him as one of the best batsmen in the country. Before he was unavailable in SA, he had been one of our better ODI batsmen. It's a shame he's had limited chances to play tests, and when he has, he's been asked to open in a couple of them. Then, when we finally get a full complement of tests, he's injured, is understandably out of form, and gets dropped.

Hopefully he won't become yet another batsman added to the list of Badly Treated Black Caps.

 

[paddy11]

Haha, sorry about that mate, it was an in-joke. There's a poster on these forums called Scaly Piscine who has a reputation for being extremely biased against New Zealand in particular, and to be honest I thought your post sounded a lot like something he would write.

The truth of the matter is, no-one who hits nine sixes in a test innings "got lucky". I think Tim Southee deserves a bit more credit than that.

Ah ok, Ive just seen Murali hit a few sixes and get a decent score for Lancashire and he isn't the greatest batsman but he could of just of easily spooned the first big shot he tried to long off if you know what I mean.

 

[Richard]

Scored a few more centuries itbt.

A few 150+s, in fact.

If you've seen Vettori on a turning surface he does actually get turn. There have been quite a few times when I've seen him turn the ball more than any other SLA of recent time.

Also, negative? I think the perfect example of Vettori as an attacking bowler would be Perth 01/02.

Yeah the "negative" stuff is routinely thrown at fingerspinners who don't often get the chance to bowl on turning pitches. It hasn't happened to Vettori as often as it did to Giles through 2002 and 2003.

Vettori is a fine fingerspinner, one of the best of recent times, and if he gets a turning track he can very easily take considerable bags of wickets. And has, often, never a better example than the game at The WACA in 2001\02.

 

[Leslie1]

Thats how many years ago? Consequently, I know Youtube isn't a good place to judge anything, but why can't I find footage of Vettori bowling against anybody apart from Bangladesh, Ireland and Zimbabwe?