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**Official** England in New Zealand

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yuh-huh, averages 33 as an opener; Bell's down at 23.
And just 24 if you knock-out that century at Trent Bridge. Fleming is a proven failure as an opener, every bit as bad as Bell.
& I fail to see what someone did 9 years ago has any bearing on current selection either.
'Cos it impacts on whether someone lacks the class, that stays there regardless of the years passing. You suggested in your first post on the matter that Bell lacked the class, rather than any technical or temperamental flaws, but I think he's done enough in the past to suggest he doesn't.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Isn't it amusing that a bowler who averages 25.27 in Tests (Mark Gillespie) is being very seriously considered for the chop while one who averages 30.26 in his most recent and best spell is nailed-down certainty in the team.

:blink:
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Isn't it amusing that a bowler who averages 25.27 in Tests (Mark Gillespie) is being very seriously considered for the chop while one who averages 30.26 in his most recent and best spell is nailed-down certainty in the team.

:blink:
Gillespie's figures flatter him a bit. I certainly don't think he should be dropped for Southee, but he's bowled quite poorly at times during his two Tests and picked up the tail.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Great win, well played England, I'd have given Sidebottom the MOTM because he is just so good!
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Gillespie's figures flatter him a bit. I certainly don't think he should be dropped for Southee, but he's bowled quite poorly at times during his two Tests and picked up the tail.
I know that, haven't you read my posts in this thread where I talked of him mopping-up the tail and turning fairly poor figures into good ones? (And was promptly yelled at by Geg, of course) :sleep:

I don't think Gillespie bowled particularly well in this game (still better than O'Brien has ever bowled against a Test-class team mind), it's just amusing that his and Martin's figures take the turn they do while their respective perceived positions in the side take theirs.

TBH, I still think Gillespie deserves a place, though, even if Southee was 3 years older.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Great win, well played England, I'd have given Sidebottom the MOTM because he is just so good!
Yeah, but Ambrose's innings, for mine, was the biggest difference between a commanding position and a weak one. It was a really intelligent innings, too - he realised the ball had stopped swinging and seaming much, and went straight for his shots (having played with caution at the start when it was still doing a bit). More than Geraint Jones managed to do in his entire Test career, sadly. :ph34r:

Ambrose gave us the advantage, Sidebottom (and Anderson in the first-innings) rammed it home.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Yeah, I wouldn't argue with Ambrose getting it, but watching SIdebottom bowl was such a pleasure in this match
 

Woodster

International Captain
Just thinking today, can we not eliminate any future squabbles with regards groundsmen preparing tracks for the obvious favour of the home side by employing neutral groundsman ? For example, the groundsmen are employed by the ICC and are generally told to prepare tracks that are good for cricket, like the recent one in Wellington, which had a bit in it for everyone.
Or does this detract from the enjoyable challenge for a side to attempt to be successful in conditions alien to what they are used to, ie England succeeding in sub-continent. Of course they will not be able to prepare every pitch to a similar standard. This is probably a completely unfeasible suggestion, but just thought I'd throw it out there.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Just thinking today, can we not eliminate any future squabbles with regards groundsmen preparing tracks for the obvious favour of the home side by employing neutral groundsman ? For example, the groundsmen are employed by the ICC and are generally told to prepare tracks that are good for cricket, like the recent one in Wellington, which had a bit in it for everyone.
Or does this detract from the enjoyable challenge for a side to attempt to be successful in conditions alien to what they are used to, ie England succeeding in sub-continent. Of course they will not be able to prepare every pitch to a similar standard. This is probably a completely unfeasible suggestion, but just thought I'd throw it out there.
I think it does TBH. I want conditions to favour the home side - that's the whole point in touring IMO. To play in conditions which are not your own. It even works domestically - there are huge variants in grounds even in a small country like England. Wantage Road, Northampton and Headingley, typically, are two surfaces at the precise opposite end of the scale every bit as much as the Basin Reserve and Chepauk Stadium, Chennai. And Northamptonshire and Yorkshire are no different to New Zealand and India - they should have home conditions to favour them, and should be challenged to play in different conditions when they go to each others' grounds.

Also, it'd probably be unworkable from the POV that the groundsman has to remain constant, so as to have a "running" knowledge of pitch-preparation, really. To have someone come in from Dubai for 3 weeks (or however long) simply to prepare Test pitches then bugger off again and leave it to the man in charge for domestic cricket for the rest of the season would be chaotic.
 

Dick Rockett

International Vice-Captain
This might not be a case of, but plenty of times in various countries we've seen groundsmen deciding that they have complete carte-blanche over the surface and that no-one will give them any orders. Well, if that's the attitude they should be sacked. Groundsmen are employed to produce the surface their employers want, not the surface they fancy. Obviously there are constraints, and obviously they can't just prepare anything on 5 minutes' notice, but if given reasonable time and reasonable working conditions there's no excuse whatsoever for a groundsman to fail to prepare the surface his board asks for.
Tbh I'm not sure what the arrangements are in other parts of the world, or indeed NZ, but the Basin Reserve's groundsman is an employee of the Wellington Regional Stadium Trust, not NZ Cricket, so technically what the governing body wants is irrelevant.

Personally while I agree with your general point of view on doctoring pitches, I don't see what was wrong with the pitch at the Basin in this last test. It was fast and bouncy, it had movement off the seam for the bowlers, and there was plenty of runs in it for the batsmen who applied themselves. Plus it produced a result on the 5th day. As far as I'm concerned that's the definition of the perfect test wicket.

NZ shouldn't be asking for or wanting low, slow pitches like the Hamilton one, because that's not going to be of any help to our players when they tour other countries, and Dan Vettori rightly pointed that out (although he somewhat confusingly said he would've preferred a Hamilton-type pitch in Wellington).
 
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Woodster

International Captain
I think it does TBH. I want conditions to favour the home side - that's the whole point in touring IMO. To play in conditions which are not your own. It even works domestically - there are huge variants in grounds even in a small country like England. Wantage Road, Northampton and Headingley, typically, are two surfaces at the precise opposite end of the scale every bit as much as the Basin Reserve and Chepauk Stadium, Chennai. And Northamptonshire and Yorkshire are no different to New Zealand and India - they should have home conditions to favour them, and should be challenged to play in different conditions when they go to each others' grounds.

Also, it'd probably be unworkable from the POV that the groundsman has to remain constant, so as to have a "running" knowledge of pitch-preparation, really. To have someone come in from Dubai for 3 weeks (or however long) simply to prepare Test pitches then bugger off again and leave it to the man in charge for domestic cricket for the rest of the season would be chaotic.
I don't disagree with what you say. I do like variety in pitches, and as you say it is not strictly international cricket where this occurs. I don't really see anything wrong with teams playing to their strengths and designing their pitches to suit. Against the odds tours are all part of crickets intrigue.

With regards having groundsmen to come in to prepare Test tracks, I have not really given it a great deal of thought, so naturally I have no organised schedule of how it would take place! I would imagine that the groundsman contracted to the ICC would spend much more time at the ground than just the three weeks prior to the Test. Possibly overseeing the domestic cricket that takes place there also, just like the head groundsman would.

Like I say I haven't given the idea a great deal of thought at all, not even sure I would realistically entertain it myself.
 

Woodster

International Captain
Personally while I agree with your general point of view on doctoring pitches, I don't see what was wrong with the pitch at the Basin in this last test. It was fast and bouncy, it had movement off the seam for the bowlers, and there was plenty of runs in it for the batsmen who applied themselves. Plus it produced a result on the 5th day. As far as I'm concerned that's the definition of the perfect test wicket.
I agree, there was nothing wrong with the pitch, it was an excellent wicket for cricket. There was enough in it to keep the bowlers interested throughout, barring perhaps as much assistance as the spinners would have liked. But they too would have enjoyed the bounce, and world class match winning spinners I'm sure would have a bigger say in the outcome.

It was also a decent track for the batsman, the ball on came on nicely, the bounce was true, it was a good even contest. But if you were NZ playing at home to England, think I may have been tempted to prepare another Hamilton style track, if not for the good of the game, just to give my side a bigger chance of a series victory
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Tbh I'm not sure what the arrangements are in other parts of the world, or indeed NZ, but the Basin Reserve's groundsman is an employee of the Wellington Regional Stadium Trust, not NZ Cricket, so technically what the governing body wants is irrelevant.
Yeah, but Wellington's association are a subsidary of NZC - same as Yorkshire are a subsidary of the ECB, and the like. By chain, the groundsman should be doing what NZC want when New Zealand are playing. Of course, every now and then in places like India the local association decides to deliberately defy the national, because of personal conflicts. 8-) Resulting in Mumbai 1981\82s and Nagpur 2004\05s.
Personally while I agree with your general point of view on doctoring pitches, I don't see what was wrong with the pitch at the Basin in this last test. It was fast and bouncy, it had movement off the seam for the bowlers, and there was plenty of runs in it for the batsmen who applied themselves. Plus it produced a result on the 5th day. As far as I'm concerned that's the definition of the perfect test wicket.
Oh, no, it was an excellent cricket wicket, there's no doubt whatsoever of that. The only problem was, it wasn't what New Zealand wanted.
NZ shouldn't be asking for or wanting low, slow pitches like the Hamilton one, because that's not going to be of any help to our players when they tour other countries, and Dan Vettori rightly pointed that out (although he somewhat confusingly said he would've preferred a Hamilton-type pitch in Wellington).
No, but you can only play to your current strengths. It's domestic surfaces that need to be tailored that way. In any case, I don't want NZ to stop being what it traditionally has been: seam-friendly. But if NZ at any given time have more spinners than seamers of quality, it makes sense to go towards them for the duration of that time.
 

Shoggz

School Boy/Girl Captain
Well, looking at the itinerary for New Zealand's return tour of the UK, with a test at both Old Trafford and Trent Bridge, it looks like they'll be getting pitches more to their liking in England than the one in Wellington!

(Particularly if the Trent Bridge deck is similar to the one used for the Sri Lanka series in 2006.)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
And also for New Zealand in 2004. :dry:

Trent Bridge has been a disgrace recently for failing to prepare England-friendly surfaces.
 

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