*Official* English Football Season 2007-08

[chalky]

Not quite, actually. Second gets you into the group stages automatically, but 3rd & 4th mean a potentially iffy tie in the 3rd qualifying round. IIRC Everton actually jibbed it at that stage the last time they finished 4th.

Forgot about Everton they drew a decent Spanish team didn't they?? The Irony is that Liverpool who were allowed in due to last minute negotiating got a straight forward draw.

If the same thing happens this year (Liverpool win the Champions League but finish 5th) & Everton finish 4th Everton won't even go into the Champions League.

 

[chalky]

.

The gap between United and Liverpool in recent years isn't great? Err, yes it is. IIRC Liverpool have only finished above United once since the Premiership began, and that was six years ago now. Titles in that time stands at 9-0 to United.

I never argued that gap wasn't great my arguement was of difference in success (i.e. winning trophies) in recent years (last 3-4), which despite Liverpool being a vastly inferior team, I don't think is that great.

I suppose it is how you value each trophy as you say the League Title is the benchmark & the true test of a teams all round ability. However to a lot of people & clubs, in terms of prestige, the Champions League is if not on the same level then just behind the domestic league. I think the fact that our domestic league is so strong probably gives it the edge.

The comment you made earlier in the thread about Utd fans wanting the Premiership more than the Chapions League surprised me a bit as the song I hear being sung the most is 'We are the champions of Europe'

If we go back to the start of the arguement it was that Benitez has achieved more (and by implicaction) is a better manager in the Champions League than Ferguson. That I stand by - no doubt Ferguson is far better all round manager than Benitez but if I wanted a manager to set a team up for a 1 or 2 legged tie to nulify a superior opposition I would chose Benitez every time.

I also think 1 win and 1 final in 3 years is better than 1 win 1 & a couple of semis, quarters etc in almoast 20 if you don't then we are going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Tom Halsey]

I never argued that gap wasn't great my arguement was of difference in success (i.e. winning trophies) in recent years (last 3-4), which despite Liverpool being a vastly inferior team, I don't think is that great.

I suppose it is how you value each trophy as you say the League Title is the benchmark & the true test of a teams all round ability. However to a lot of people & clubs, in terms of prestige, the Champions League is if not on the same level then just behind the domestic league. I think the fact that our domestic league is so strong probably gives it the edge.

The comment you made earlier in the thread about Utd fans wanting the Premiership more than the Chapions League surprised me a bit as the song I hear being sung the most is 'We are the champions of Europe'

If we go back to the start of the arguement it was that Benitez has achieved more (and by implicaction) is a better manager in the Champions League than Ferguson. That I stand by - no doubt Ferguson is far better all round manager than Benitez but if I wanted a manager to set a team up for a 1 or 2 legged tie to nulify a superior opposition I would chose Benitez every time.

I also think 1 win and 1 final in 3 years is better than 1 win 1 & a couple of semis, quarters etc in almoast 20 if you don't then we are going to have to agree to disagree.

I would probably choose Benitez now, too, just not over the course of a whole career.

Now, United fans in general seem to me to place the European Cup on equal importance with the league, but definitely not last year. Four years without the title hurt, especially as fans just got used to winning it as a routine year in year out.

I think, in Bentiez's achievements, he has had a lot of luck, too. In 2005, he relied on a ridiculous refereeing decision to even reach the final, and in 2007 he relied on the glorified coin-tossing competition that is penalties.

 

[cpr]

Heh Chaulky, looks like the avatar challenge is a goer, gives me reason to cheer Inter That and the fact its always fun to wind up my brother in law (who's a Liverpool fan).


Incidently, i'm of the opposite side to Tom here, whilst the league is the big target, really feel we HAVE to win another European title if were to claim to be the best team in Europe. Think without it were just another team who dominates there own league, but doesnt stand upto the best of the best. The fact that Liverpool have been to 2 finals and Arsenal one in the last couple of years underlines the fact we just cant claim to be one of the best in Europe given our record. OK we've tended to come up against better teams at unfortunate times, but y'know, you've got to beat the best to be the best. Wont be happy untill we win another European cup personally.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Will agree that we need to win another to be regarded as a great side - I guess I've just come to terms with the idea that we aren't European giants, and so it bothers me less. To me the league is the bread and butter, and most other United fans I speak to think the same, however the opinions of yourself and Sean are interesting.

 

[grecian]

Mugged, absolutely ****ing mugged.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Mugged, absolutely ****ing mugged.

Not really. We were pretty poo.

 

[cpr]

Will agree that we need to win another to be regarded as a great side - I guess I've just come to terms with the idea that we aren't European giants, and so it bothers me less. To me the league is the bread and butter, and most other United fans I speak to think the same, however the opinions of yourself and Sean are interesting.

Thats interesting, because personally I feel we should be European giants, we should be, with Real and Milan, the biggest and best team in Europe. The only thing thats prevented it is a few poor results. Having said that, untill last year we didnt quite have the team, then we just happened to come up against Milan in the semi (anyone else and we'd have got through IMO). Suppose between 2002 and 2006 i'd have agreed, league is the target, and hope we give Europe a good crack. However, last season wet my appetite, and this year we have the team (when playing well) to be the best.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Yeah, we should be, I wish we were, but I've just got used to us not being on the level of Madrid and Milan.

If we mess Europe up this year I will probably cry, there is no-one we should be scared of, but we probably will do.

 

[Shaggy Alfresco]

Thats interesting, because personally I feel we should be European giants, we should be, with Real and Milan, the biggest and best team in Europe. The only thing thats prevented it is a few poor results.

1) Real Madrid aren't European giants if you don't consider Man Utd European giants. The last time they won the CL was in 2002

2) The only thing that is preventing Man Utd from winning the Champions League is the workload they get from trying to win the treble every single year. Liverpool got to the final twice with nothing to play for in the league, same as Milan. I think it will be nigh-on impossible for an English team to win the league and the champions league without a winter break being instated.

 

[roseboy64]

Bit of education for any Man Utd fan who doesn't know.
Why you should call us by our correct name

 

[Matteh]

I think it will be nigh-on impossible for an English team to win the league and the champions league without a winter break being instated.

They used to a fair bit back in the day.

 

[Shaggy Alfresco]

They used to a fair bit back in the day.

3 times in the entire history of the European Cup has an English team won the league and the European Cup in the same season.

 

[superkingdave]

We were abysmal, just as we were looking good we've returned to our autumn form, and with Goodison out injured, we're ****ed. The bank manager will be pleased; no Wembley for me.

I eagerly anticipate my new avatar

Haven't much time to look around but this will do...ooh roger palmer

 

[Tom Halsey]

1) Real Madrid aren't European giants if you don't consider Man Utd European giants. The last time they won the CL was in 2002

Madrid are unarguable as European giants. Them and Milan are miles ahead of everyone else. Not just in terms of success, but in terms of the ability to woo a player better than we can. As far as this goes, despite similar European underachievment, Barcelona are ahead of us too - Ronaldinho chose them over us, for instance. I'd place us fourth on the list of European giants at the highest tbh.

 

[Tom Halsey]

They used to a fair bit back in the day.

United did it in the Treble season, and Liverpool did it twice - if memory serves, 77 and 84. Which given the run at the time of English winners, isn't much at all. United also came close in 68 but buggered up the league on the last day.

 

[The Sean]

Will agree that we need to win another to be regarded as a great side - I guess I've just come to terms with the idea that we aren't European giants, and so it bothers me less. To me the league is the bread and butter, and most other United fans I speak to think the same, however the opinions of yourself and Sean are interesting.

I don't disagree with the notion that the league is our bread and butter, and all things being equal I reckon I'd generally take being league champions over winning a cup comptetition, no matter how prestigious. However when you win 9 titles in 15 years, and have a better than even chance of making it 10 from 16 this season, the fact that only once in that period have we gone all the way in Europe is certainly disappointing and I'd certainly love another CL or two to redress that balance.

 

[The Sean]

Madrid are unarguable as European giants. Them and Milan are miles ahead of everyone else. Not just in terms of success, but in terms of the ability to woo a player better than we can. As far as this goes, despite similar European underachievment, Barcelona are ahead of us too - Ronaldinho chose them over us, for instance. I'd place us fourth on the list of European giants at the highest tbh.

While their ability to woo a player better than us is questionable at best, the red scousers have to be ranked ahead of us too.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Yeah, I did think about them, I'd say it's arguable, really it's all about how you weigh up current success with history. Scouse possibly ahead of us IMO, I'd say we're fourth at the highest and possibly seventh or eighth at the lowest.

 

[Barney Rubble]

All this discussion of Europe has piqued my interest. I read somewhere (Facebook, actually) today that even if Cardiff win the FA Cup, something to do with the fact that they're not based in the country whose league they play in means they'd be ineligible to enter the UEFA Cup.

Also, they are ineligible to play in the Welsh League, as they have been playing in the English league so long that their official registration dates back to before there was a Welsh League.

In effect, this means that Cardiff can't qualify for Europe, no matter what happens - is this true? Surely it can't be?