*Official* English Football Season 2007-08

[The Sean]

Good point of course the retort to that was the season Man U won the Champions League they wern't champions.

They were actually champions that season. They just weren't the reigning champions from the previous season.

 

[chalky]

They were actually champions that season. They just weren't the reigning champions from the previous season.

I know my point was they wouldn't have qualified for Chapions league (which they of course won) if the old rules of Champions only qualification were in place. I only brought this up as people were trying to knock Liverpool's Champions League record as they had not qualified as domestic champions.

 

[The Sean]

Ha ha, yeah I knew what you meant mate - just being pedantic as I am often wont to do.

For what it's worth I agree that Benitez has been relatively more successful in Europe than Ferguson, given the amount of time both men have been in charge - I've said before that I'm jealous of Liverpool's performances in Europe in recent years. We're a much better side than they are, but the seem to have an ability to step up in big-stage European knock out matches ties that we don't.

I don't believe it's quite as simple as them just being "better" in Europe though, there are other factors as well in my opinion. The fact that their league challenge evaporates by Christmas in most seasons certainly helps them focus their energies purely on peaking for a few knockout ties in the latter stages of the Champions Leage in a way that the likes of United, Chelsea and others, who are challenging on multiple fronts, can't afford to do.

I read somewhere that United and Liverpool might well have liked to switch places last season, ie that Liverpool would arguably have preferred to win the League (their bread and butter, and on which their legend was built) rather than make the CL final, whereas United may well have given up another PL title (despite it being their first in several years) to reach another Champions League final. I daresay United would have only taken that deal if it meant they got to win the CL final though...

 

[chalky]

Agree with you on the point of challenging for multiple trophies. I think only Barcelona have won both their domestic league & the chmpions league in recent years. Also though Benitez' (much cirticised) rotation policy also helps as he does keep his top players fresh even if it does cost them a league title challenge.

 

[cpr]

Judging him on one game when he's just back from injury? Saw him at Watford? Not a comparison to Old Trafford but you could see the potential.

Been saying the same since at Watford, good shot stopper, not the full package though. Not confident enough in him to want him as our first choice. When he impresses me i'll change my mind, but from what i've seen he's a bit of a David James, good saver, bad concentration

Didn't Liverpool win the FA Cup 2 Seasons ago?

Man Utd haven't really been challenging for the Champions League though have they? 1 Final in since readmission.

As for the Premiership Man Utd won it last year but wasn't that the first time in 4 years?
And as finishing 4th gets you same prize as 2nd you could argue how much better it is finishing 2nd to 4th.

I'm no Liverpool fan (as I have said) but the discounting of Liverpool's Champions League success is ridiculous I'm sure if you asked Fergie or Wenger they would certainly swop a league title or 2 for a Champions League.

No doubt Manchester Utd are a more successful side than Liverpool in recent years but I don't think the margin is as great as some are saying.

If peoaple are so confident about Man Utd I'm willing to have an avatar bet that Liverpool will go further than Man U in the Chapions League this season. Any takers?

I'll take the avatar challenge.

People are pretty quick to dismiss utd's record here. Since 1999 our record is as follows
2000: QF, Lost 3-2 on agg to Real Madrid (eventual winners)
2001: QF, Lost 3-1 on agg to Bayern Munich (eventual winners)
2002: SF, Lost on away goals to Leverkusen (runners up)
2003: QF, Lost 6-5 on agg to Real Madrid
2004: 2nd Round, Conned (sorry, i meant lost) 2-3 on agg to FC Porto, thanks to a shocking ref decision (again, eventual winners)
2005: 2nd Round, Lost to AC Milan (runners up)
2006...... moving on
2007: SF, Lost to AC Milan (eventual winners)

Considering the team between 2002 and 2006 hasnt exactly been the greatest of the modern era (i'd say that 2006/2007 season was where they started to gel and come to the level of the class of 99), we've not had a bad run. Only in 2006 can you really be embarrased by our performance, all other years we've met a bloody good side who've have for the most part gone on to the final. 4 times in 8 years we've lost out to the eventual champions (and twice more against the runners up, so 6 times in 7 attempts past the group stage we've lost out to finalists)

 

[chalky]

I'll take the avatar challenge.

No probs avatar for a month obviously void if they both go out at the same stage.

 

[Tom Halsey]

You did ask...

Ferguson 309.5pts (in 25 seasons)
Benítez 145.5pts (in 7 seasons)

So Benítez' teams notches up the points at about double the rate. ITSTL. (Yes, I know there are more matches these days and whatnot, but Man Utd hasn't scored more points than a Benítez-coached side since 2003).

Also, would like to raise a point re: leagues being a more test of mettle than cups (it seems to be a favoured beating horse of yours and other Man Utd fans). Doesn't beating a Wigan\West Ham\*insert relegation-favoured side as appropriate* side that camps in its own half for 90 % of the time require a different set of skills than beating Juventus or Chelsea over two legs? Not saying Man U doesn't deserve credit for pummeling Reading et al week in and week out, but top matches are a different beast and should be judged differently - and all there is then is the knock-out format + possibly top-four matches in the league (where, admittedly, Liverpool does not have a great recent record, and did lose magnificently and splendidly to Chelsea in the season when they knocked them out of the Champiducks League)

That's not really relevant to what the guy said, he said Bentiez had done more in three years at Liverpool (ie ignore Valencia) than Ferguson has done in his whole career at United which is blatantly not true. He may have done better when you consider that he's only had three years but that's not what he said.

As to the last paragraph: that's not why I don't think the European Cup is the measure of a side. I think that because it's a knock-out competition. Look at the FA Cup - United and Chelsea have just been knocked out by inferior sides (all credit to them though) despite playing strong sides theirselves. It's a one-off. It is not in the nature of a knock-out competition to determine the best side, when only one defeat puts you out. And there are many variables here that even out over a whole season but not over one game, such as refereeing decisions and the like.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Didn't Liverpool win the FA Cup 2 Seasons ago?

Man Utd haven't really been challenging for the Champions League though have they? 1 Final in since readmission.

As for the Premiership Man Utd won it last year but wasn't that the first time in 4 years?
And as finishing 4th gets you same prize as 2nd you could argue how much better it is finishing 2nd to 4th.

I'm no Liverpool fan (as I have said) but the discounting of Liverpool's Champions League success is ridiculous I'm sure if you asked Fergie or Wenger they would certainly swop a league title or 2 for a Champions League.

No doubt Manchester Utd are a more successful side than Liverpool in recent years but I don't think the margin is as great as some are saying.

If peoaple are so confident about Man Utd I'm willing to have an avatar bet that Liverpool will go further than Man U in the Chapions League this season. Any takers?

Nah, historically people (in England at least) have always seen the league as the bread and butter, and the European Cup as a nice bonus. For example, while the European Cup is undoubtedly prestigious, United fans last year all craved the return of the title far more than the European Cup.

The gap between United and Liverpool in recent years isn't great? Err, yes it is. IIRC Liverpool have only finished above United once since the Premiership began, and that was six years ago now. Titles in that time stands at 9-0 to United.

As for avatar bets, I've already explained my reasons why I'm still not that confident, this is due to neo-Ferguson if you like, if we still had the pre-2003 version I'd be very very confident now.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Well the dust has settled long enough to comment now, and what a weekend. I was initially gutted with the loss to Pompey but the defeat of Chelsea and the Gooners dropping points at Wigan yesterday have softened the blow somewhat.

Regarding our game, a lot of fans and pundits seem to be split between the “the ref was **** and we got mugged” and the “we were **** and deserved what we got” schools of thought. I reckon they’re both true. Yep, we got mugged by a team that set its stall out to defend, and yep, the ref was appalling (I would like someone to genuinely explain to me how the Ronaldo incident wasn’t a penalty – he didn’t even try to get close to the ball). All that being said though, Pompey defended like Gods, they stuck to their gameplan superbly, and they took the chance that came their way. I absolutely can’t fault them, and if we’re honest United had the players and the opportunities to win that game several times, but we choked – I reckon we could have played until Christmas and not scored. It just wasn’t our day, and we got done fair and square. This is what happens in cup football.

It did raise a few questions, obviously – Why did we insist on hitting high balls into the box when the average height of Portsmouth’s defence is 8’3? Why did Fergie take Tevez off to bring on Anderson when he was in my mind one of our more dangerous players? Could the Scholes/Hargreaves combination have had any less influence on the match had they just sat on the sidelines all game? Is it possible for Louis Saha to take more than three steps without injuring himself?

In the end it’s not all bad – we’ve got some real magic now in the last four of the Cup, and United can join Chelsea and the Arse on concentrating on the other two trophies.

Disagree with this, personally I think that Tevez was shocking on Saturday, worst he's played for us that I can remember.

 

[The Sean]

Disagree with this, personally I think that Tevez was shocking on Saturday, worst he's played for us that I can remember.

Fair enough, we all see different things I guess. I'd never say it was one of his better games for the club, but given the lack of incisiveness in our play I thought he was among the best of a bad bunch, and in my mind far more likely to score than Rooney.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Fair enough, we all see different things I guess. I'd never say it was one of his better games for the club, but given the lack of incisiveness in our play I thought he was among the best of a bad bunch, and in my mind far more likely to score than Rooney.

Yeah I didn't think Rooney was all that either, as you said probably down to the fact that we insisted on feeding them high balls despite their lack of height and Portsmouth's massive amounts of height.

 

[BoyBrumby]

And beaten Real Madrid in the final?

Against Barcelona? Good luck. Apparently it was Real though..........

It was both. Aberdeen under Fergie beat Real Madrid in the final (how insane a result does that sound now?!) & ManUre beat Barca under the great man thanks to (if memory serves) two goals from Sparky Hughes.

As for the Premiership Man Utd won it last year but wasn't that the first time in 4 years?
And as finishing 4th gets you same prize as 2nd you could argue how much better it is finishing 2nd to 4th.

Not quite, actually. Second gets you into the group stages automatically, but 3rd & 4th mean a potentially iffy tie in the 3rd qualifying round. IIRC Everton actually jibbed it at that stage the last time they finished 4th.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

As to the last paragraph: that's not why I don't think the European Cup is the measure of a side. I think that because it's a knock-out competition. Look at the FA Cup - United and Chelsea have just been knocked out by inferior sides (all credit to them though) despite playing strong sides theirselves. It's a one-off. It is not in the nature of a knock-out competition to determine the best side, when only one defeat puts you out. And there are many variables here that even out over a whole season but not over one game, such as refereeing decisions and the like.

Yeah, but over the league season, in 70 % of the games you end up playing teams that really wouldn't take many points in Europe. It takes something to truly be better than them - as United do - but I'm not sure you can automatically extrapolate from the skill on display in those games and say that United is better equipped to beat Barcelona and Roma.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Yeah, but over the league season, in 70 % of the games you end up playing teams that really wouldn't take many points in Europe. It takes something to truly be better than them - as United do - but I'm not sure you can automatically extrapolate from the skill on display in those games and say that United is better equipped to beat Barcelona and Roma.

United, over a period of time, have had a very good record against the big four too, though.

I think a European League would really crown the est side in Europe, and in such a League United would be big challengers - however I don't by any stretch of the imagination want that to happen.

 

[roseboy64]

Been saying the same since at Watford, good shot stopper, not the full package though. Not confident enough in him to want him as our first choice. When he impresses me i'll change my mind, but from what i've seen he's a bit of a David James, good saver, bad concentration

Fair enough. Would prefer to see him with a team with a good defence to test that concentration thing though.

It was both. Aberdeen under Fergie beat Real Madrid in the final (how insane a result does that sound now?!) & ManUre beat Barca under the great man thanks to (if memory serves) two goals from Sparky Hughes.

Oh ok. Knew there was something involving Barca.

 

[headhunter]

When was the last time there was only 1 top-flight club in the last 4?

1905 apperantely

 

[wpdavid]

As to the last paragraph: that's not why I don't think the European Cup is the measure of a side. I think that because it's a knock-out competition. Look at the FA Cup - United and Chelsea have just been knocked out by inferior sides (all credit to them though) despite playing strong sides theirselves. It's a one-off. It is not in the nature of a knock-out competition to determine the best side, when only one defeat puts you out. And there are many variables here that even out over a whole season but not over one game, such as refereeing decisions and the like.

Up to a point. But the EC is, mostly, a two-legged affair, so there's less chance of the sort of anomalies that we saw on Saturday. And even with the FA Cup, we all know that it's been massively dominated by the Big 4 over the last 20 years or so, so this year's semifinalists have to be seen in that sort of context.

I actually think the EC is a pretty fair measure of a side - certainly over a period of time, anyway. And arguably more so since it became the Champions League, when the best sides in Europe will nearly always be present. I know it's not perfect, and does depend on the quality of sides around. So even though I will always put the late70's/early 80's Liverpool side above MU because of heir vastly superior record in Europe, I won't deny that they were lucky in so far as they avoided the Great german & Dutch sides of the early 70's and the outstanding AC side of the late 80's. But a genuinely great side will do more than MU have managed, imo.

btw, and changing the subject completely, I couldn't resist a rare dip into this forum to see if folks still can't see NUFC going down. Admittedly my initial forecast that KK would take them into the Championship was slightly tongue-in-cheek, but if their next 9 or 10 games are as successful as their last 9 or 10, then surely they're gonners

 

[BoyBrumby]

1905 apperantely

My paper today said 1908: Newcastle (Div 1) were joined by Fulham (Div 2), Wolves (Div 2) & Southampton (old Southern League).

 

[BoyBrumby]

btw, and changing the subject completely, I couldn't resist a rare dip into this forum to see if folks still can't see NUFC going down. Admittedly my initial forecast that KK would take them into the Championship was slightly tongue-in-cheek, but if their next 9 or 10 games are as successful as their last 9 or 10, then surely they're gonners

It's certainly becoming a potential rib-tickler. They're a desperately ordinary team whose only really class players are either out of form (Duff), injured (Givens) or both (Owen). Has there ever been a less inventive midfield than Smith, Butt & Geremi?

Got Birmingham away & Fulham at home next up; anything less than 4 points there and they could be in serious strife.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Up to a point. But the EC is, mostly, a two-legged affair, so there's less chance of the sort of anomalies that we saw on Saturday. And even with the FA Cup, we all know that it's been massively dominated by the Big 4 over the last 20 years or so, so this year's semifinalists have to be seen in that sort of context.

I actually think the EC is a pretty fair measure of a side - certainly over a period of time, anyway. And arguably more so since it became the Champions League, when the best sides in Europe will nearly always be present. I know it's not perfect, and does depend on the quality of sides around. So even though I will always put the late70's/early 80's Liverpool side above MU because of heir vastly superior record in Europe, I won't deny that they were lucky in so far as they avoided the Great german & Dutch sides of the early 70's and the outstanding AC side of the late 80's. But a genuinely great side will do more than MU have managed, imo.

btw, and changing the subject completely, I couldn't resist a rare dip into this forum to see if folks still can't see NUFC going down. Admittedly my initial forecast that KK would take them into the Championship was slightly tongue-in-cheek, but if their next 9 or 10 games are as successful as their last 9 or 10, then surely they're gonners

Don't think they'll go down, they have at times looked decent against sides outside the big four, should have beaten Blackburn and Middlesbrough at the very least, the sacking of Allardyce is now looking very stupid though.

As for the European Cup - this got raised on another forum, the general consensus being that if the European Cup was still played in its old format then United would have won a couple more - if only league winners are in it, then a lot of good sides are immediately taken out. It's up for debate whether letting in sides down to fourth ruined the integrity of the competition, but IMO it's a far stronger competition because of it. All due respect to the Villa side that won it for example, but it's no longer possible for a side as mediocre as that - IIRC they came 10th/11th in the league that season, and the league title was an anomaly season - to win the competition.

It's still not perfect, though. The winners in 2005 and 2004 were undoubtedly not the best sides in Europe. And you can argue that Milan weren't last year either - great side though they were, they weren't good enough for the consistency required to win the league - just the one-off games. As for two legs - they don't make much difference if the legs are only a week apart, as last year's semis were, and you have an entire back four injured. While we may still have gone out in the San Siro - I think very highly of that MIlan side - we'd undoubtedly have given them a much better game if we'd had a back four.