Which IPL franchise will you be supporting?

[ret]

From what I've seen, having a couple good bowlers in Twenty20s just doesn't cut it as part timers end up getting targeted and get murdered. The option of having Kallis as a fifth bowler is invaluable and certainly makes up the debatable gap with your so called better stroke makers.

Agreed, but are you implying that teams that don't hv Kallis are at a disadvantage and will struggle with their 5th bowling option?

As someone pointed why not Oram or Symo, i.e. nice stroke makers, along with good 5th bowling options

Ur points don't cut in coz it's more like you saying that I want to off-road in a BMW 5er X Drive, while i m saying let's use a Range Rover

then u r like, but the 5er is a good car .... and i m like we will be off-roading a little so why not take a proper off-roader

then u r like, 5er has X drive .... and i m like, why not the proper off-roader, i.e. the Range Rover coz situ demands it

then u r like but 5er is blah blah

hope u got the point

cheers

 

[pasag]

thats what i m doing when i say that Kallis would not hv made a difference in that D/Ner at Durban and that he is not the right pick for B'lore in 20T considering the type of players B'lore has

Anyways, let's not try to shove each others opinion down each others throats, coz this is only increasing my post count and i believe in quality over quantity .... i guess, we got each others point

cheers

My main gripe is that it's part of a wider a myth that these cricketers can't bat fast or can't adapt if they want to. They're premier batsmen who bat slowly and cautiously in Tests not because they are forced to through lack of skill and talent, but because they choose to, for the benefit of the team and because a lot of the time it's the smartest thing to do. I reckon with a full licence to go out and have fun in the IPL, this will become clear once and for all.

 

[ret]

No, it wouldn't have been. Kallis can play strokes just fine.

Yes, and so can Jaffar, Dravid & Langer, or even Kumble .... so whats the point?

cheers

 

[pasag]

Agreed, but are you implying that teams that don't hv Kallis are at a disadvantage and will struggle with their 5th bowling option?

As someone pointed why not Oram or Symo, i.e. nice stroke makers, along with good 5th bowling options

Ur points don't cut in coz it's more like you saying that I want to off-road in a BMW 5er X Drive, while i m saying let's use a Range Rover

then u r like, but the 5er is a good car .... and i m like we will be off-roading a little so why not take a proper off-roader

then u r like, 5er has X drive .... and i m like, why not the proper off-roader, i.e. the Range Rover coz situ demands it

then u r like but 5er is blah blah

hope u got the point

cheers

Don't get the analogy, it's too late here for that. One thing I noticed during the T20 championships that whereas in ODIs, often part timers can be effective in the middle overs in drying up the runs and killing the momentum, there was nowhere to hide for them in T20s, so yeah, teams are at a massive disadvantage. And I don't rate Symonds bowling in Twenty20s, iirc he got killed in the championships.

 

[ret]

My main gripe is that it's part of a wider a myth that these cricketers can't bat fast or can't adapt if they want to. They're premier batsmen who bat slowly and cautiously in Tests not because they are forced to through lack of skill and talent, but because they choose to, for the benefit of the team and because a lot of the time it's the smartest thing to do. I reckon with a full licence to go out and have fun in the IPL, this will become clear once and for all.

Nothing against Kallis abilities to score quickly, just that there are ppl who can do that better better and make a gr8er impact

and trust me, I don't go by myths, I do a lot of thinking .... to draw an analogy, Kumble can bowl well in ODIs too but he is in? Langer could hv been useful in ODIs [ur same argument on free license can be applied] but did he open for OZ in the ODIs?

No, Langer didn't open in ODIs, even though most of ur arguments for Kallis can be applied to him too.

Gilly opened, why? .... was it because Langer can't do a Gilly if given a full licence, No? .... It's because Gilly is a better option and can make a gr8er impact than Langer when opening in ODIs and same is the case against Kallis here .... there is no point in saying what Kallis can do, along w/ ifs and buts, as thats not the central point

ppl like you can go on explaining the merits of opening with Langer in ODIs and what Langer can do but it's Gilly that opens

Hope you got the point .... I can't put in simpler than that^

cheers

Don't get the analogy, it's too late here for that. One thing I noticed during the T20 championships that whereas in ODIs, often part timers can be effective in the middle overs in drying up the runs and killing the momentum, there was nowhere to hide for them in T20s, so yeah, teams are at a massive disadvantage. And I don't rate Symonds bowling in Twenty20s, iirc he got killed in the championships.

Yes, i guess it's too late for you

You are judging Symo from one tournament, so why don't u judge Kallis from his 20T record so far, eh?

Comparing Apples to Oranges, eh? For Kallis, it's potential but for Symo, it's that championship

cheers

 

[pasag]

Nothing against Kallis abilities to score quickly, just that there are ppl who can do that better better and make a gr8er impact

and trust me, I don't go by myths, I do a lot of thinking .... to draw an analogy, Kumble can bowl well in ODIs too but he is in? Langer could hv been useful in ODIs [ur same argument on free license can be applied] but did he open for OZ in the ODIs?

No, Langer didn't open in ODIs, even though most of ur arguments for Kallis can be applied to him too.

Gilly opened, why? .... was it because Langer can't do a Gilly if given a full licence, No? .... It's because Gilly is a better option and can make a gr8er impact than Langer when opening in ODIs and same is the case against Kallis here .... there is no point in saying what Kallis can do, along w/ ifs and buts, as thats not the central point

ppl like you can go on explaining the merits of opening with Langer in ODIs and what Langer can do but it's Gilly that opens

Hope you got the point .... I can't put in simpler than that^

cheers

Can't see your point, because Langer got pigeonholed as a Test only player by Australian selectors proves nothing. Yeah, Gilchrist was a better one-day batsman than Langer, but he was a better one-day batsman than alot of players. The analogy doesn't work on a heap of levels. BTW, he'll be the darkhourse in this tournament (if he plays) and will surprise a lot of people with the ability to really come out firing like he's done on the domestic circuits in recent times.

 

[ret]

Can't see your point, because Langer got pigeonholed as a Test only player by Australian selectors proves nothing. Yeah, Gilchrist was a better one-day batsman than Langer, but he was a better one-day batsman than alot of players. The analogy doesn't work on a heap of levels. BTW, he'll be the darkhourse in this tournament (if he plays) and will surprise a lot of people with the ability to really come out firing like he's done on the domestic circuits in recent times.

simply put ---> the analogy is that its abt better option and the one who can make a gr8er impact

and again, i guess, u r doing the same thing with Langer as you did with Kallis, i.e. raving on his abilities but again that not the point here

cheers

 

[pasag]

simply put ---> the analogy is that its abt better option and the one who can make a gr8er impact

and again, i guess, u r doing the same thing with Langer as you did with Kallis, i.e. raving on his abilities but again that not the point here

cheers

But that's the point, you're perceiving their potential impact wrongly with the notion that they can't adapt or they wont succeed in Twenty20s, blinded by batting in other formats or whatever myths have been perpetuated.

 

[silentstriker]

I think a lot of people miss the fact that virtually every decent Test class batsman could bat like Afridi if they wanted - they don't because its not beneficial to their team in the long run.

 

[Jono]

To be fair to ret, he's not saying pick Afridi.

He's saying pick a Gibbs or Hayden instead.

I think his argument isn't completely flawed, he's just ignoring Kallis' bowling which is silly.

Better to use Dravid of Chanderpaul as his examples. Or rather just Chanderpaul because Dravid is an icon player so had to play anyway.

 

[NUFAN]

1. I gave various options as too how Blore could hv better invested that million .... and isn't it understood that if B'lore went for Dhoni then it would not hv Boucher duh

2. all respect to Kallis and his match winning abilities, but he is not a hot commodity as far as 20T goes, imo. i guess, he was not selected even in the RSA 20T squad

3. I can very well understand that you fail to understand the point on overseas fast bowlers . let me make it american proof for you

B'lore's bowling attack
pacers - Zak, Praveen, Kallis, Steyn, Bracken,
spin - Kumble, White

now let's take the overseas players [we can only select 4 from it]
Kallis, Bracken, Steyn, White, Boucher and Cpaul

now let's build an X1

top ----> Jaffar, White, Kallis
middle ----> Dravid and Boucher
lower ----> Praveen, XXX, XXX

so how many bowlers do we have in it by now, eh? ----> Kallis, Praveen and White
now let's add the bowlers
bowlers ----> Zak, Bracken /[OR] Styen & Kumble

who is sitting on the bench? Cpaul & Bracken [OR] Styen

now let's twist the bidding here -
Lets say Agarkar in place of Bracken or Steyn

now let's take the new line up
top ----> Jaffar, Cpaul & Kallis
middle ----> Dravid and Boucher
lower ----> White, Praveen & Agarkar
bowlers ----> Zak, XXX and Kumble

who is sitting on the bench now? Bracken or Steyn

And because, Blore has both Bracken and Steyn NOW, it will now have to go for lesser known Indian batters, which might not be a good idea in 20T

Thats the reason why teams like Kol bid $900+ for an Indian bowler like Ishant duh, as it would hv Agarkar, Ishant, Murali as Ind bowlers, along with Gul/Akthar to help them out

Thats the reason why Mohali has Ind players like Sree, Pathan, Chawla, Powar

Hope you got the point [i can't simplify further ]

cheers

You arrogant little man.

There are still good Indian players out there who Bangalore can purchase.

Every side is going to have a couple of good International players sitting on the sidelines because as you always say (which I know) you can only have 4 of them on the field.

 

[ret]

But that's the point, you're perceiving their potential impact wrongly with the notion that they can't adapt or they wont succeed in Twenty20s, blinded by batting in other formats or whatever myths have been perpetuated.

so r u trying to imply that you are perceiving it correctly?

let me put my point across in another way

most ppl playing international cricket hv potential, most of them can hit the ball a long way be it a defense oriented player or a tailend batsman like Kumble .... Gosh, even stroke-makers can guard if situation demands [thats not even a point so what if someone goes abt talking abt some myth that just because stroke makers are known to play aggressively, it does not mean that they can't guard if situation demands ]

But when selecting players, you hv to look at what you have in ur squad, ur core competencies, along with ur weaknesses

then you select players, based upon what the better option is for you and who can make a gr8er impact

based on that^, imo, Kallis is NOT a gr8 fit for B'lore [even though he is a good player and may be could be a good fit for some other team] coz B'lore has some players already that r like him .... B'lore was better of getting a stroke maker instead but this does not mean that Kallis cant make strokes [and thats the irrelevant point that you r making], ofc he can .... And if B'lore did want Kallis then it would hv been better of getting someone else in place of Cpaul and Bracken / Steyn

What guys like you are doing is telling that 'oh no, B'lore has a good line up. Kallis can do this or that, if he plays defensively in tests does not mean that he can't be stroking in 20T, B'lore doesn't need stroke makers as these guys CAN do that as well [class players can do anything], he has potential but again thats not the point,and thats why I gave Langer's example to explain that he has potential too but that does not mean he opens in ODIs for OZ as OZ has a better option. But again what u do is rave abt Langer's potential!!!!

cheers

 

[pasag]

Just looking through Langer's Twenty20 record for Somerset. Has played 16 games:

90(46)
23(18)
76(50)
45(37)
49(31)
6(7)
78(39)
17(13)
15(10)
9(8)
9(8)
0(2)
45(36)
20(18)
4(6)

Not bad for the Test specialists. A bit of a rough trot towards the end it seems, but still ave nearly 39 at a strike rate of 150. There are certainly indications there that he may do very well in the IPL if he ever gets around to playing.

 

[NUFAN]

And if B'lore did want Kallis then it would hv been better of getting someone else in place of Cpaul and Bracken / Steyn

Do you realize Chanderpaul has the 4th fastest 100 in Test Cricket of all time? Just 69 balls.

You need to understand that players have certain roles in sides and tbh Shiv and Jacques are two of the best at doing this in the world.

I'm not saying these two guys are the most destructive players in the world, but they easily make big runs off a low number of balls.

Bracken and Steyn are both awesome bowlers, so they'll be great for the team. And as you've said not all of the players are going to be available the whole time, so what's wrong with having a bit of backup in the bowlers?

 

[ret]

Just looking through Langer's Twenty20 record for Somerset. Has played 16 games:

90(46)
23(18)
76(50)
45(37)
49(31)
6(7)
78(39)
17(13)
15(10)
9(8)
9(8)
0(2)
45(36)
20(18)
4(6)

Not bad for the Test specialists. A bit of a rough trot towards the end it seems, but still ave nearly 39 at a strike rate of 150. There are certainly indications there that he may do very well in the IPL if he ever gets around to playing.

nice stats but who said that he won't do well in IPL?

cheers

 

[pasag]

so r u trying to imply that you are perceiving it correctly?

let me put my point across in another way

most ppl playing international cricket hv potential, most of them can hit the ball a long way be it a defense oriented player or a tailend batsman like Kumble .... Gosh, even stroke-makers can guard if situation demands [thats not even a point so what if someone goes abt talking abt some myth that just because stroke makers are known to play aggressively, it does not mean that they can't guard if situation demands ]

But when selecting players, you hv to look at what you have in ur squad, ur core competencies, along with ur weaknesses

then you select players, based upon what the better option is for you and who can make a gr8er impact

based on that^, imo, Kallis is NOT a gr8 fit for B'lore [even though he is a good player and may be could be a good fit for some other team] coz B'lore has some players already that r like him .... B'lore was better of getting a stroke maker instead but this does not mean that Kallis cant make strokes [and thats the irrelevant point that you r making], ofc he can .... And if B'lore did want Kallis then it would hv been better of getting someone else in place of Cpaul and Bracken / Steyn

What guys like you are doing is telling that 'oh no, B'lore has a good line up. Kallis can do this or that, if he plays defensively in tests does not mean that he can't be stroking in 20T, B'lore doesn't need stroke makers as these guys CAN do that as well [class players can do anything], he has potential but again thats not the point,and thats why I gave Langer's example to explain that he has potential too but that does not mean he opens in ODIs for OZ as OZ has a better option. But again what u do is rave abt Langer's potential!!!!

cheers

Again, I can't really follow a lot of that, not sure if that's my fault or yours. At the end of the day, this is all you need to know is, one, Kallis is a star all-rounder (your argument that Bangalore already have players of Kallis role doesn't work as there is no other all-rounder in the squad) and two, just because he bats slowly in Tests doesn't mean he can't turn it up in Twenty20s. If he bats at SR of 80 and costs Bangalore games, then I'll agree with you. But there's no indication he will do this. His Test batting and the boring Kallis persona certainly isn't one. When you look at those two points, it's not hard to fathom why he is so valuable.

 

[Langeveldt]

So it'd be really hypocritical of you if you supported a Premiership football club made up of endless mercenaries and an absence of Poms now wouldn't it?

Not to mention one that's bankrolled by some foreign bloke who probably hasn't even kicked a ball in anger

 

[ret]

Do you realize Chanderpaul has the 4th fastest 100 in Test Cricket of all time? Just 69 balls.

You need to understand that players have certain roles in sides and tbh Shiv and Jacques are two of the best at doing this in the world.

I'm not saying these two guys are the most destructive players in the world, but they easily make big runs off a low number of balls.

Bracken and Steyn are both awesome bowlers, so they'll be great for the team. And as you've said not all of the players are going to be available the whole time, so what's wrong with having a bit of backup in the bowlers?

I m not doubting C'paul's potential and again you are implying that i don't understand abt roles

btw, the field placing in tests are different, if you know what i mean

B'lore would hv been better off chosing one from Bracken and Steyn and getting an Ind bowler instead as it would mean that guy would be in the playing X1 more often than not

cheers

 

[ret]

Again, I can't really follow a lot of that, not sure if that's my fault or yours. At the end of the day, this is all you need to know is, one, Kallis is a star all-rounder (your argument that Bangalore already have players of Kallis role doesn't work as there is no other all-rounder in the squad) and two, just because he bats slowly in Tests doesn't mean he can't turn it up in Twenty20s. If he bats at SR of 80 and costs Bangalore games, then I'll agree with you. But there's no indication he will do this. His Test batting and the boring Kallis persona certainly isn't one. When you look at those two points, it's not hard to fathom why he is so valuable.

btw, White is taken as an all-rounder in B'lore's squad

and i know that just because Kallis bats slowly in tests, it does not mean he can't turn it own .... haven't i answered that line of thinking before .... once again i ll do that if you want me to be repetitive like you

Langer [his potential not doubted, so don't go on and on abt his potential] is a very good player but he doesn't open for OZ in ODIs [in fact, Gambhir reminds me of Langer]. Is it because he is not good enough to open in ODIs? No, it's not cause of that but because OZ have a better option in Gilly, who can be more effective .... ofc, if Langer opens in ODIs, he would be successful in it too. He can turn it on too. so whether Langer can turn it on, is not a point

Now, if B'lore did want Kallis then fair enough but it should hv then got someone else in place of say Cpaul and one from Bracken or Styen to have a more effective combination .... Again, whether Kallis can turn it on is not a point, it's just that the combination is flawed with too many similar type of players in the B'lore squad

cheers

 

[ret]

You arrogant little man.

There are still good Indian players out there who Bangalore can purchase.

Every side is going to have a couple of good International players sitting on the sidelines because as you always say (which I know) you can only have 4 of them on the field.

have i stepped on ur tail?

let's see what happens when B'lore finally gets those 'good' Ind players. we can discuss that l8r, when that happens .... right not, too me, it doesn't look like a gr8 combination and definitely needs to get some stroke makers in

cheers