**Official** England in New Zealand

[Jamee999]

Bowling attack needs a genuine wicket taker and the only one we have is currently playing in India as a batsman. Also Bell and Cook need up their strike rates, currently is not good enough. Prerequisite nowadays should be at least 75.

Dunno about Cook, he works quite well as a foil to the Colonel, and he's not batting that slowly, he goes faster than 4 an over...

 

[aussie]

Well, you'd think, if Trescothick and Flintoff were to come back tomorrow, things would currently look something like this:

Trescothick
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Flintoff
Mustard
Broad
Swann
Sidebottom
Anderson \ Mascarenhas

Which still contains plenty of uncertainties (Mustard, Shah, Bell, Anderson, Broad, Collingwood). Not to mention, I find it sadly unlikely that Trescothick or Flintoff will ever return, never mind make the 2011 WC.

Why the uncertainties over these two i wonder?

 

[aussie]

4 years ago can be a long time in cricket, but the last time England may have had a possible claim to be one of the top OD sides in the World was the 2004 Champions Trophy and amazingly not 1 of that team is currently playing (only 1, Giles, has retired).

Thats quite a turnover of players, especially as there is a host more that have been tried and dropped in between.

Nah, that CT final run was just a case of England doing well in home conditions really, that finals run was just as fluke as West Indies winning that tournament given the strcture of it. The last time i reckon England really had a top ODI team was back in the 92 WC if you look at it, even the side that won in OZ or the tournament in 97 would i consider a top side.

I reckon the best England ODI XI i have ever seen really where all area's where well balanced was this match.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

The last time i reckon England really had a top ODI team was back in the 92 WC if you look at it, even the side that won in OZ or the tournament in 97 would i consider a top side.

Agreed.
England have been crap ever since.

 

[wpdavid]

4 years ago can be a long time in cricket, but the last time England may have had a possible claim to be one of the top OD sides in the World was the 2004 Champions Trophy and amazingly not 1 of that team is currently playing (only 1, Giles, has retired).

Thats quite a turnover of players, especially as there is a host more that have been tried and dropped in between.

Didn't Collingwood play in that tournament? Even so, that's quite a feat, isn't it. I suppose Tres & Fred would still play if available. Didn't Harmison play too and of course he's retired from odis now? I'm trying to think who else played - Vaughan, Strauss, G.Jones, Gough & Wharf spring immediately to mind. Solanki maybe?

I wasn't meaning to nitpick btw - there's no arguing with the bigger picture that we get through a heck of a lot of players in the 50-over game. I suppose if we're trying to be fair, then current judgements should only cover the period since Moores took over, but even then there's been some odd calls.

 

[wpdavid]

Nah, that CT final run was just a case of England doing well in home conditions really, that finals run was just as fluke as West Indies winning that tournament given the strcture of it. The last time i reckon England really had a top ODI team was back in the 92 WC if you look at it, even the side that won in OZ or the tournament in 97 would i consider a top side.

I reckon the best England ODI XI i have ever seen really where all area's where well balanced was this match.

It looks good on paper, but you've picked one of the few games they actually won. Following that game, they lost the other 2 in Pakistan, all 3 in SL, and all 6 at home to Aus & Pakistan. Usually by substantial margins, IIRC.

As has already been said, we've barely had a competitive side since the 1992 WC.

 

[The Baconator]

Why the uncertainties over these two i wonder?

Gingism.

 

[aussie]

It looks good on paper, but you've picked one of the few games they actually won. Following that game, they lost the other 2 in Pakistan, all 3 in SL, and all 6 at home to Aus & Pakistan. Usually by substantial margins, IIRC.

As has already been said, we've barely had a competitive side since the 1992 WC.

All true, but that side in the ODI was just basically the best ODI XI England has put up in my time of watching cricket even though it wasn't as successfull as it should have been.

Our potential WC 2003 side if Gough wasn't injured & Thorpe didn't have his family problems could have potentially been the best since the 92 WC though in:

Trescothick
Knight
Hussain
Thorpe
Stewart
Collingwood
Flintoff
White
Giles
Gough
Caddick

But that didn't happen unfortunately, currently we have that same situation of 2002/03 all over again where we are saying we just need Trescothick & Freddie & we will be perfect back then it was Gough & Thorpe, but when they acutally came back in the case of Gough he was nowhere near the same ODI bowler of mid 2002 & Thorpe didn't bother with ODI's anymore. Hopefully history doesn't repeat itself..

 

[wpdavid]

All true, but that side in the ODI was just basically the best ODI XI England has put up in my time of watching cricket even though it wasn't as successfull as it should have been.

Our potential WC 2003 side if Gough wasn't injured & Thorpe didn't have his family problems could have potentially been the best since the 92 WC though in:

Trescothick
Knight
Hussain
Thorpe
Stewart
Collingwood
Flintoff
White
Giles
Gough
Caddick

But that didn't happen unfortunately, currently we have that same situation of 2002/03 all over again where we are saying we just need Trescothick & Freddie & we will be perfect back then it was Gough & Thorpe, but when they acually came back in the case of Gough he was nowhere near the same ODI bowler of mid 2002 & Thorpe didn't bother with ODI's anymore. Hopefully history doesn't repeat itself..

If anything, I'd have thought that Tres & Fred are more likely to only play ODIs than tests - not that you'll catch me saying they'll sort everthing out though. Fred's bowling would make a huge difference of course, but we'd still be way behind the really top sides imo.

As for that 2000 lineup, I suppose you're looking at the best of the 90's generation plus Flintoff, which sounds good. But I always found the 90's players a disappointment in ODI's, especially the batting, which usually folded without too much of a fight against decent attacks. The bowling was usually reasonable, tbf, and I'd happily swap them for the current attack.

 

[Mixmasterreece]

Yes he has, hasn't he

I get the feeling he was picked on potential. When he first started he was very flawed but he's gotten better and better and seems very tough mentally as well. Early days but he's a player that so far is developing nicely



I've always felt we wouldn't be too bad after the retirements. Its exciting to see all the fresh faces coming onto the scene from all over the world. It is early days with this new team but they look to have some potential there. You make some interesting points but if I may I'll make a comment on them starting from the top:

-yup.

-Taylor in ODIs yes, tests I'm unsure. he'll need to improve alot. Same with Ryder for ODIs

-unlikely but I hope so, he has ability just doesn't seem to apply himself. His self doubt that he talks about now cannot have helped much either

-yup, good signs for McCullum so far. Loving it.

-Hope so. Oram and Franklin in particular are developing strongly as allrounders

-If Southee doesn't outstrip Martin I'll be shocked. Mills is one hell of a one day bowler though. If Sherlock can stay injury free from now on then I think we'll see him playing for NZ one day

-Hay is awesome. Case closed.

-Haven't really seen Broom or Flynn but they're scoring some good runs domestically.

-More likely four years rather than two for Williamson in particular. Boult may get accelerated through though.

Still don't agree with the idea of Nicol opening when we have How and Guptill showing some promise. IMO the current side and the curent up and comers will gell and start to become a very good side from 2011 onwards, assuming the injury plague and the underachieving plague stay away and hopefully visit Australia instead.

Completely agree with the post above.

I think the future of our batting lineup is promising, but we will be very reliant on the progress of Southee, Sherlock and Boult in our bowling stocks.

 

[Richard]

Can't see Tres returning, so we're probably looking at the current top 6 followed by Fred at 7 if he ever does get fit. Thereafter is anyone's guess. Sidebottom & Broad, obviously & probably respectively. Swann should play. Then we're looking at Mascarenhas or Wright, I suppose. If Fred doesn't recover, Jon lewis may yet get a recall at soem stage of our summer. That's a bowler light, but they aren't exactly queuing up, are they.

There is simply no way Mascarenhas and Wright should ever be in direct competition. They're totally different players. Wright is a batsman (one who's been unutterably abysmal at batting for all bar half a season in the mickey-mouse 40-over competition) and Mascarenhas is a bowler.

Lewis will be 35 by the next WC and has never exactly convinced me in the one-day game, so I don't really want to see him back in there again either.

I wonder what happened to the two lads who opened the bowling and usually made inroads when we saw off Aus and a rather stronger NZ side 12 months ago.

Runs for cover ....

Well Anderson's still playing, on the road (fast currently) to being shown-up as substandard, and Plunkett I think we all knew it was mostly simply enormous good fortune on his behalf that he took as many wickets as he did (4 out of the last 5 games in the CB Series he took 3-fors). He'll almost certainly play again, and I can only see his recent average (23.57 in his last 9 games against ODI-standard opposition) going up. His economy-rate in that time (5.68-an-over) remains as bad as ever. There was only 1 game where he bowled genuinely well (the SCG game on Feb 2 against Australia), plus 2 where he took advantage of stupidly helpful conditions (the second final, again at The SCG, and the Lord's game against West Indies).

 

[Richard]

His record against Sri Lanka is remarkable. Hard to see it being replicated anytime soon and as he plays more games that record will have less of an effect on his overall stats.

He will have a very useful economy rate and be a valuable player. Certainly a guy that could bowl the middle part of the innings and keep the opposition in hand.

Pretty much agree with this. Don't see Sidebottom knocking-over top-orders with remarkable regularity in ODIs but a pretty damn good straight man.

 

[Richard]

As for that 2000 lineup, I suppose you're looking at the best of the 90's generation plus Flintoff, which sounds good. But I always found the 90's players a disappointment in ODI's, especially the batting, which usually folded without too much of a fight against decent attacks. The bowling was usually reasonable, tbf, and I'd happily swap them for the current attack.

Knight, Hick and Fairbrother?

You're having a laugh, surely? All 3 were fantastic against the best and the worst.

Flintoff, on the other hand, was not worth a light of any kind at that point. He was useless. He should never, ever have played a ODI until 2001\02.

Incidentally, I can't remember a better batting performance by an England side than that run-chase in Karachi. But the team had passed its peak by then. The team we had in 1999\2000 and 2000 was indeed a pretty damn good one. An eclectic team at that time (never actually played together due to various circumstances) would probably be something like: Trescothick, Knight, Hick, Hussain, Stewart, Thorpe, White, Ealham, Caddick, Gough, Mullally. And there might have been reasonable hope that it'd soon get together that winter or shortly after.

But as happens so often with England and ODIs, the stars did not align: Stewart had been, well, rested shall we say, for Read (useless at that point) in the 1999\2000 winter; Trescothick only got in because Knight broke his finger then was ridiculously left-out as Stewart opened; Hussain kept getting injured and when he wasn't injured usually opened or batted three, two of the places there were eminently better options; Thorpe missed the entire thing; Hick was inexplicably dropped shortly after (not that his subsequent form warranted any thought of a recall); White soon lost his own form; Ealham and Mullally like Hick received selectorial stupidity; and Caddick and Gough were soon parted never to reunite.

In 1999\2000 and 2000, England had possibly a better set of players available than in 1992. Since the winter of 2000\01, English ODI cricket has been in a non-stop rut, whatever any ridiculous building-up of the impossible number of rubbish players who've played since has suggested.

 

[Richard]

Why the uncertainties over these two i wonder?

Gingism.

Al, you know me - I have something of a soft-spot for gingers, though admittedly mostly of the female variety.

Bell and Collingwood I've simply never rated as ODI batsmen and probably never will. Neither of them have often performed very well.

 

[Richard]

Dunno about Cook, he works quite well as a foil to the Colonel, and he's not batting that slowly, he goes faster than 4 an over...

That's presuming, though, that Mustard remains in the side, which is a fairly fanciful presumption IMO.

 

[The Baconator]

Al, you know me - I have something of a soft-spot for gingers, though admittedly mostly of the female variety.

Bell and Collingwood I've simply never rated as ODI batsmen and probably never will. Neither of them have often performed very well.

Didn't actually know that, but fair enough.

 

[Richard]

Forgotten already?

 

[The Baconator]

Forgotten already?

Evidently. BTW, that guy now seems to have moved on to girls who have names that are all to easy to pun. God I love him.

 

[bombdaddy68er]

-Hay is awesome. Case closed.

-Haven't really seen Broom or Flynn but they're scoring some good runs domestically.

-More likely four years rather than two for Williamson in particular. Boult may get accelerated through though.

Still don't agree with the idea of Nicol opening when we have How and Guptill showing some promise. IMO the current side and the curent up and comers will gell and start to become a very good side from 2011 onwards, assuming the injury plague and the underachieving plague stay away and hopefully visit Australia instead.
Completely agree with the post above.

I think the future of our batting lineup is promising, but we will be very reliant on the progress of Southee, Sherlock and Boult in our bowling stocks.
__________________
Future Black Caps Test XI
Jamie How*, Martin Guptill, Ross Taylor*, Greg Hay, Kane Williamson, Jesse Ryder*, Corey Anderson*, Brendan McCullum, Tim Southee*, Roneel Hira*, Trent Boult* ,
12th Man : Te Ahu Davis*

Future Black Caps ODI XI
BJ Watling, Martin Guptill, Ross Taylor*, Kane Williamson, Jesse Ryder*, Daniel Flynn, Corey Anderson*, Brendan McCullum, Gareth Morgan*, Tim Southee*, Trent Boult*
12th Man : George Worker

My thoughts:

1st of all Flem

If you think hay is that awesome then i think you belong on the paddock with farm animals because quite frankly i prefer no hay or no grass, shaven haven all the way baby haha k so SERIOUS thoughts now

Broom- Top player, i traded my abs silk tee for his tee-shirt one night in velvet burger after heand aaron redmond flopped there joeys out casual...so i think he need a couple more years to mature or maybe a girlfriend that wont dump him...DEFINATE potential though

Flynn- Seems cool headed enough

Yougens- Southee is a potential star and 17 year old corey anderson has huge stature already, others are yet to show top performances at domestic level


And to the last guy that posted future teams:

Heres my FUTURE SQUAD (2012/13 season)

TESTS/ODI take your pick

Martin Guptill
Jesse Ryder
+Brendon McCullum*
Jamie How
Ross Taylor
Corey Anderson
Daniel Flynn
Kane Williamson
BJ Watling
Brad Rodden (19, Father had a fallout with NZ U19 selectors) check otago u17/u19 record!
Daniel Vettori
Dewayne Bowden
George Worker
Tim Southee
Roneel Hira
Leighton Burtt
Trent Boult
Richard Sherlock
Mr Unknown- Andy McKay?

 

[Perm]

What's wrong with Collingwood? Scores a few against minnows, but has performed against top sides too.