Harbhajan reignites racism storm

[Rajeev]

So? I call my mate's ****s all the time, and make a joke here and there when with some mates of mine who are black, but that's because we're mates and we know it's all in good humour. It's totally different when someone you don't know, or an opponent who's trying to get the better of you says the same thing.

So his general POV about Monkey is not racist, but when someone else says it 'Its racist', OK
tell me how did he confirm that the other person is saying from a racist POV

I certainly had no clue Monkey was racist down under( well atleast for symonds ), PS - never even realized symonds was black

...and you know what

Seriously, if someone is called Monkey and takes it as a racial comment, would a strongly built person like Symonds come out with a soft comment like Symonds to Harbhajan at the end of an over: "Go and yell at your teammates...You called me monkey again."

I would imagine one would be furious and run to the umpire or the player to STFU and seen on the big screen

 

[sirdj]

Symonds sat down with Harbhajan before the tour and told him he didn't like it. Harbhajan knew it yet carried on and said it. He is as guilty as sin and the people who run the game are gutless.

What is offensive to people differs, Symonds finds 'monkey' offensive Harbhajan finds 'bastard' offensive and the arguement will never end.

Besides the claim of Symonds that 'monkey' is offensive, point me to one article that discusses that it is a racial slur.

 

[sirdj]

BTW, this just in the local Indian papers. Symonds says that Harbhajan might have not said monkey.

Now I am really feeling bad for him. They should not have twisted his arm to retract his statement. Its emasculating.

Now if I hear even one statement of gloat from any of the Indian supporters............

 

[Dusty Lee]

BTW, this just in the local Indian papers. Symonds says that Harbhajan might have not said monkey.

Now I am really feeling bad for him. They should not have twisted his arm to retract his statement. Its emasculating.

Now if I hear even one statement of gloat from any of the Indian supporters............

I wouldn't believe everything you read in a news papers, they've never been known to let truth get in the way of a good story.

 

[Cevno]

VR Manohar, BCCI’s counsel, tells Vijay Tagore that the Australians demanded a written apology from the Indian off-spinner but he didn’t agree

Was it an open-and-shut case?

No, it was not an easy case. I did a lot of research over the last 10 days. I found that there is a genuine case for defence.

Can you share with us your approach to the case?

I cannot go into specifics. But once I studied the judgement, I found that Mike Proctor’s verdict cannot be legally tenable. The Appeals Commissioner cross-examined the Australian players present at the hearing — Ricky Ponting, Michael Clarke, Matthew Hayden and Andrew Symonds — and found that there was no evidence of racial abuse on the part of Harbhajan Singh. He ruled that the offense cannot come under law 3.3. It was downgraded to law 2.8.

The premise of your argument...

We’ve broadly based our point on the premise that monkey is not a racial word just as kangaroo is not. A few words may have been exchanged between the players but that there was no racial abuse from Harbhajan Singh.

We’ve proved that Symonds was the first aggressor and Harbhajan was only replying. Besides, Harbhajan knew Symonds as only an Australian and did not know about his ethnic (West Indian roots) background.

There were reports that transcripts from the stump microphone were used.

Nothing damaging, rather racial, could be found in the material.

What do you make of Mike Proctor’s judgement?

It was unfair and biased verdict. As it turned out, it did not stand the test of law. The ICC should initiate action against the match referee.

The perception is that some back-channel diplomacy between the ICC and the BCCI did the trick...

I’ve no knowledge of any such diplomatic initiative. We’ve fought in the court room and won in the court room. It was a legal victory. The Australian side wanted a written apology from Harbhajan Singh and I said it cannot be accepted. We rejected their demand.

Now that the case has been settled, can you say what exactly did Harbhajan say to Symonds?

I can say with authority that Harbhajan did not utter anything racial. There were a words exchanged which happens in the heat of the moment.

Intersesting.
Both the australian media and the indian media are going overboard.
The aussies are portraying it as Indians run cricket while the Indian media is portraying that india has got it's victory over evil forces of England and australia who have run cricket for so long and now that they have lost this control they are bitter about it.

 

[Cevno]

I wouldn't believe everything you read in a news papers, they've never been known to let truth get in the way of a good story.

Yeah I agree.
The australian newspapers are also taking a very sensationalist approach and no way we can make sure it was not a straight trade off between hogg and bhajji charges.
Meanwhile BCCI has told sreesanth to keep it cool during the ODI series.Are they bowing to pressure?

 

[Burgey]

For the same reason that Ponting & Hayden were there to give evidence.


It seems that both the Aussies & the Indians behaved worse than 5 year olds in Sydney. The trouble with adding monkey to a list of racist slurs is once a word is deemed racist, then its racist irrespective of who used it or in what context it was used a 5 year old or Harbhajan.

Its your view which is ridiculous AND you STILL have not pointed out why a non-coloured opinion on racism is more valid than a coloured opinion.

Instead you give all the various scenarios of how someone will be beaten up. Anyways would you be beaten any less if you called him a donkey?? Stop pulling out Streets in America and Black guys out of hats and respond to the original question.

I am discussing the word 'monkey'. I am not here to talk about the BCCI and their arm-twisting. The BCCI is more of a political organisation than a governing body, the CEO and other twits are all Politicians and have to pander to the effigy burning electorate.

Cant say about what Indian supporters are claiming, But my stand on the issue is that legally Harbhajan can't be punished due to lack of evidence & monkey is not a racial term as it trivializes what is deemed as a racist slur.

No, because Hayden heard it, and Ponting was the captain who reported it.

You mean to tell me that when a 5 year old uses a word you take it to mean the same thing, have the same context and be filled with the same intent as when a grown man uses it? Spare me, though in Harbhajan's case, it may be expecting too much.

Please read this slowly. You are construing my saying that a coloured person's view on racism is no more valid than a white person's, as me saying that the white person's view is more valid. It's not what I'm saying - they are the same, one is no more valid than the other.

Maybe the word "coolie" isn't a racist term in Australia, but it may well be to people of Indian descent in South Africa. Does that mean I could call them that word with impunity? Of course not mate, because for the 10th time - tolerance (whcih I am rapidly running out of in relation to your frothings and ravings) is a two-way street.

Well, we don't know whether HBS could be punished due to a lack of evidence coz a deal was struck which meant the evidence wasn't re-tested. I thought all along the original decision here was very odd, but the process of the appeal was rendered useless by political pandering.

And, if you think monkey isn't a racist term, then that's fine, we'll just agree to disagree. But next time an Aussie/ Englishman/ Kiwi/ Saffie/ West Indian calls an Indian a bastard, don't expect an apology, becaue apparently cultural sensitivity has no place here. You see, to those people it probably isn't a racist, demeaning or disgusting term, despite how hurtful it might be to the bastard in question.

Wouldn't it just be better if all the players accepted that there are cultural differences here, and that they all need to behave with an element of respect to each other, and indeed to themselves?

 

[social]

What history, besides the stupid monkey sounds which is used in European football please point me to one article which states history about the word 'monkey' as a racial slur..

Ignorance is bliss

 

[Burgey]

BCCI acted very badly by chartering a plane, if Harbhajan was proven guilty then what?

At the same time, it's hard to take symonds word here too as he is no saint either

Procter was utterly biased and should be fired
Hayden?Tendulkar had no business coming in as they didn't hear anything http://www.cricketnext.com/news/what-transpired-in-the-harbhajan-hearing/29293-13.html

Ponting belongs to a team which is an institute of sledging, pathetic of him and mates to take this step ( and apparent are now furious on something which never happened )

Media trying to cover up the whole thing as a BCCI deal when a federal judge acquitted Harbhajan of Racism case

India forgive Hogg and instead of reciprocation, Aussies are charging a visiting teams player for an offense they have been guilty of since the beginning of this sport
..and now that crazy bowler sreesanth is coming for his antics, the ODIs will be played under a cloud of bitter compromise and poker faced players

What do you mean he was biased? No problem accepting he got it wrong, but where's the evidence of bias here?

Ponting took this step because one of his players told him he'd been racially abused, and in line with what the ICC told him to do, he reported it.

The reciprocal act was the tit-for-tat citing of Hogg, which took place after HBS was cited. Once an appeal had been lodged, the rules said that the matter had to go to an appeal hearing.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah I agree.
The australian newspapers are also taking a very sensationalist approach and no way we can make sure it was not a straight trade off between hogg and bhajji charges.
Meanwhile BCCI has told sreesanth to keep it cool during the ODI series.Are they bowing to pressure?

Yes, to some extent they are. Especially love Roebuck's take on it now, given that he wrote such an inflammatory article when it all 1st happened and panned the Australians. now, he's panning the Indians - wtf? The man's double standards know no bounds.

Of course, we well recall the balance of the Indian press post-Sydney.
Concerntrating on Dravid's dudd decision instead of the fact that they capitulated and lost 9 other wickets in just over two sessions.

 

[aussie_26]

is anybody not convinced beyond reasonable doubt that harbijan called symonds a monkey ? i am completely convinced after reading the script.So what if there was no audio of him saying it I mean people get convicted of murder without there being any visual footage

 

[Burgey]

is anybody not convinced beyond reasonable doubt that harbijan called symonds a monkey ? i am completely convinced after reading the script.So what if there was no audio of him saying it I mean people get convicted of murder without there being any visual footage

No I'm not convincd to the standard of BRD. In fact, I'd struggle to get to balance of probs, but might get there based on the impromptu reaction of the players around him.
My problems with it are:
the BCCI's role in it - taking their bat & ball and going home, plus getting an umpire replaced;
circumventing the appeal process by some ridiculous deal
the fools here who reckon calling a bloke of West Indian descent a monkey isn't racist, because in India apparently it isn't racist, yet those self-same people don't want the word bastard used because they are sensitive to it, when people from other countries who use it aren't.

 

[burr]

What history, besides the stupid monkey sounds which is used in European football please point me to one article which states history about the word 'monkey' as a racial slur..

It’s a racist term b/c it draws on a long history of comparing non-whites to animals; implying they are bestial in nature, and thus justifying treating them in discriminatory ways. Now as to whether being compared to an animal is offensive, I think not. We have a lot to learn from other species but we’re too blinded by our anthropocentric culture. Yeah, but that’s another argument…

 

[aussie_26]

What history, besides the stupid monkey sounds which is used in European football please point me to one article which states history about the word 'monkey' as a racial slur..

would you feel comfortable going to th US and calling black Americans monkeys ? would you feel comfortable calling people in the west Indies monkeys ?

If the word monkey is not racist than the next time harbijan says it to symonds he should tell him to go and look in the mirror

 

[aussie_26]

No I'm not convincd to the standard of BRD. In fact, I'd struggle to get to balance of probs, but might get there based on the impromptu reaction of the players around him.
My problems with it are:
the BCCI's role in it - taking their bat & ball and going home, plus getting an umpire replaced;
circumventing the appeal process by some ridiculous deal
the fools here who reckon calling a bloke of West Indian descent a monkey isn't racist, because in India apparently it isn't racist, yet those self-same people don't want the word bastard used because they are sensitive to it, when people from other countries who use it aren't.

I dont believe that the Aussies would act like that if he didn't call symonds a monkey.if that was an act they need to move to Hollywood straight away.

 

[Burgey]

I dont believe that the Aussies would act like that if he didn't call symonds a monkey.if that was an act they need to move to Hollywood straight away.

But he could well have said something which sounded like it. I dont doubt they thought they heard it, but as to whether it would be enough to satisfy to the required standard is another question.

 

[aussie_26]

But he could well have said something which sounded like it. I dont doubt they thought they heard it, but as to whether it would be enough to satisfy to the required standard is another question.

what are the chances that symonds,hayden,ponting and clarke all miss heard what he was saying ? also what was the actual word he used that lead to him being fined ?

 

[Dusty Lee]

What do you mean he was biased? No problem accepting he got it wrong, but where's the evidence of bias here?

Ponting took this step because one of his players told him he'd been racially abused, and in line with what the ICC told him to do, he reported it.

The reciprocal act was the tit-for-tat citing of Hogg, which took place after HBS was cited. Once an appeal had been lodged, the rules said that the matter had to go to an appeal hearing.

It is a bit hard on Proctor to say he got it wrong. He heard evidence from players, and obviously followed guidelines. He is a match referee not a judge, and at that point the BCCI hadn't stood over the ICC and threatend to go home and carried on like spoilt brats.

Though I must say the ICC have a habit of doing this, they set down guide lines for there umpires and officials to follow and then don't back them up when they do there jobs, look at Darryl Hair for a prime example. They kicked him in the guts twice.

 

[aussie_26]

It is a bit hard on Proctor to say he got it wrong. He heard evidence from players, and obviously followed guidelines. He is a match referee not a judge, and at that point the BCCI hadn't stood over the ICC and threatend to go home and carried on like spoilt brats.

Though I must say the ICC have a habit of doing this, they set down guide lines for there umpires and officials to follow and then don't back them up when they do there jobs, look at Darryl Hair for a prime example. They kicked him in the guts twice.

I think the other cricketing nations have to take a stand against India.India have got to except that they dont make the rules thats the job of the ICC.India might make alot of money but they cant play against themselves.

 

[sirdj]

No, because Hayden heard it, and Ponting was the captain who reported it.

And Tendulkar says he did not hear the slur being used. So you you have the word of 2 Aussies against 2 Indians.

You mean to tell me that when a 5 year old uses a word you take it to mean the same thing, have the same context and be filled with the same intent as when a grown man uses it? Spare me, though in Harbhajan's case, it may be expecting too much.

So if a 5 year old uses the word '******' to describe a coloured classmate its all innocent babytalk, Is it? and he should not be corrected?

Please read this slowly. You are construing my saying that a coloured person's view on racism is no more valid than a white person's, as me saying that the white person's view is more valid. It's not what I'm saying - they are the same, one is no more valid than the other.

Please read this even slower.......there is no way in hell a non-coloured view on racism as valid as a coloured persons because 99% of racism is directed from a non-coloured person to a coloured person. When that percentage reaches anywhere near 50-50 please feel free to give your opinion. Till then despite all your good intentions you have no clue as to what racism is.

Maybe the word "coolie" isn't a racist term in Australia, but it may well be to people of Indian descent in South Africa. Does that mean I could call them that word with impunity? Of course not mate, because for the 10th time - tolerance (whcih I am rapidly running out of in relation to your frothings and ravings) is a two-way street.

Usage of the word 'coolie' is related to the fact that Indians were used as coolies during the colonial days in South Africa, but humans were never monkeys and did not even evolve from monkeys but from apes. (FYI in India coolies still exist and you as a white man may even call a registered coolie a 'coolie'.)

Well, we don't know whether HBS could be punished due to a lack of evidence coz a deal was struck which meant the evidence wasn't re-tested. I thought all along the original decision here was very odd, but the process of the appeal was rendered useless by political pandering.

I am not bothered with the outcome of the case. If a deal was made then CA are indeed spineless.

And, if you think monkey isn't a racist term, then that's fine, we'll just agree to disagree. But next time an Aussie/ Englishman/ Kiwi/ Saffie/ West Indian calls an Indian a bastard, don't expect an apology, becaue apparently cultural sensitivity has no place here. You see, to those people it probably isn't a racist, demeaning or disgusting term, despite how hurtful it might be to the bastard in question.

I don't speak for the Indian supporters or the Indian team. This is just my opinion on the subject of racism and the usage of the word 'monkey'.
Having said that, Pandora's box has been opened, and it has not been a subcontinent team that did it. You will now see a whole list of stupid words being added as objectionable to a person's race. Who knows you may even be even bounced off this forum if you use one of those words in the future.

Wouldn't it just be better if all the players accepted that there are cultural differences here, and that they all need to behave with an element of respect to each other, and indeed to themselves?

I have ALWAYS maintained that there is no place for ANY sledging in any sport. Its just uncultured, uncouth, uncivilized, boorish behaviour.