Harbhajan reignites racism storm

[silentstriker]

Cant say about what Indian supporters are claiming, But my stand on the issue is that legally Harbhajan can't be punished due to lack of evidence & monkey is not a racial term as it trivializes what is deemed as a racist slur.

You are completely and utterly ignorant of basic knowledge. Either you are so biased that you cannot see it, or you have never remotely studied any sort of social history. Against anyone that has an education beyond the middle school level, you will not win an argument claiming that 'monkey' is not a racial term towards black people.

 

[stephen]

Its your view which is ridiculous AND you STILL have not pointed out why a non-coloured opinion on racism is more valid than a coloured opinion.

I am discussing the word 'monkey'.

But my stand on the issue is that legally Harbhajan can't be punished due to lack of evidence & monkey is not a racial term as it trivializes what is deemed as a racist slur.

Then you have no fundamental understanding of the term "racism". Racism is discrimination against an individual based on their ethnic background. The words that are used do not matter, but the meaning behind them does. The N word for example, which is perceived as the WORST of the racist comments was derived from the name of the country of origin of the people who the term was leveled against.

It does not matter if an individual is black, white, yellow, purple or polka dotted, if they take offense at a term, which is directed at them because of their ethnicity, then the term is racist.

As to not enough evidence to convict Harbi:

The conversation between Australian players and Harbhajan Singh that was picked up by the Channel Nine stump microphone:

Symonds to Harbhajan: "Go and yell at your teammates. You called me a monkey again?"

Hayden: "Twice."

Hayden approaches Harbhajan, saying: "You've got a witness now, champ. That's the last time."

Harbhajan: "No listen, he started it."

Hayden: "It doesn't matter, mate. It's racial vilification. It's a **** word and you know it."

Clarke then approaches umpire Mark Benson, saying: "It's not the first time. He done it in India and got into strife. That's the second time he's done it."

Ponting walks up to Benson and gestures towards umpire Steve Bucknor, saying: "Go and tell him. Go and tell him straight away."

source: http://www.smh.com.au/news/cricket/...rry-saga/2008/01/29/1201369135071.html?page=2

There we have it, multiple witnesses and the implication by the accused that they are guilty. We have a smoking gun with fingerprints all over it, we just don't have the shooting on video. The strongest evidence that the defense could produce was someone who could not hear it and the threat of pulling the tour.

 

[sirdj]

You are completely and utterly ignorant of basic knowledge. Either you are so biased that you cannot see it, or you have never remotely studied any sort of social history. Against anyone that has an education beyond the middle school level, you will not win an argument claiming that 'monkey' is not a racial term towards black people.

You Sir seem to have a post grad degree in Social History it seems. I have no love lost for Harbhajan but I have a problem with people like you who seem bent on making a mountain out of a molehill. If you have the gumption to make an argument then please do. So far I just see grandstand statements.

 

[silentstriker]

I have no love lost for Harbhajan but I have a problem with people like you who seem bent on making a mountain out of a molehill. If you have the gumption to make an argument then please do. So far I just see grandstand statements.

So you are saying that the word monkey has not historically been used to denigrate an entire race? The part of history where a black man had as much rights as '3/5' of a white man because he was considered part monkey escape your knowledge? That was the entire basis of enslaving them - as they weren't really human and they needed to be controlled like animals. Thats where the racial taunt 'monkey' originated. Find historical cartoons from fifty and more years ago in the main stream, and look at the media of the time and you'll see a consistent representation of a black man as a 'half monkey-half man' because thats what they were thought to be.

I do not have a 'post-grad degree' in social history, but I do have something called a basic education, where we learn things like 'social history'.

 

[Rajeev]

BCCI acted very badly by chartering a plane, if Harbhajan was proven guilty then what?

At the same time, it's hard to take symonds word here too as he is no saint either

Procter was utterly biased and should be fired

Hayden?Tendulkar had no business coming in as they didn't hear anything http://www.cricketnext.com/news/what-transpired-in-the-harbhajan-hearing/29293-13.html

Ponting belongs to a team which is an institute of sledging, pathetic of him and mates to take this step ( and apparent are now furious on something which never happened )

Media trying to cover up the whole thing as a BCCI deal when a federal judge acquitted Harbhajan of Racism case

India forgive Hogg and instead of reciprocation, Aussies are charging a visiting teams player for an offense they have been guilty of since the beginning of this sport

..and now that crazy bowler sreesanth is coming for his antics, the ODIs will be played under a cloud of bitter compromise and poker faced players

 

[stephen]

You Sir seem to have a post grad degree in Social History it seems. I have no love lost for Harbhajan but I have a problem with people like you who seem bent on making a mountain out of a molehill. If you have the gumption to make an argument then please do. So far I just see grandstand statements.

The problem you face in your arguement is that he is right and you are wrong.

Did you ever stop to wonder why noone has questioned whether the comment was racist or not? It is because it has been clearly accepted precedent that it is in fact a racist comment, and was clear to all Indian players before the tour began.

 

[sirdj]

Then you have no fundamental understanding of the term "racism". Racism is discrimination against an individual based on their ethnic background. The words that are used do not matter, but the meaning behind them does. The N word for example, which is perceived as the WORST of the racist comments was derived from the name of the country of origin of the people who the term was leveled against.

It does not matter if an individual is black, white, yellow, purple or polka dotted, if they take offense at a term, which is directed at them because of their ethnicity, then the term is racist.

No It seems that all of you here are self claimed experts. When the level of taking offense to words reaches the level of monkey(without the 'black' prefix) then its my opinion that things are going too far.

A racist word like '******' is racist, whether a 10 year old uses it or a 30 year old. Will you use the same measure with 'monkey'. So please don't even try comparing the two.

As to not enough evidence to convict Harbi:
source: http://www.smh.com.au/news/cricket/...rry-saga/2008/01/29/1201369135071.html?page=2
There we have it, multiple witnesses and the implication by the accused that they are guilty. We have a smoking gun with fingerprints all over it, we just don't have the shooting on video. The strongest evidence that the defense could produce was someone who could not hear it and the threat of pulling the tour.

You still don't have the fingerprints on the gun, you don't have the bullet and you don't have the confession to the murder. I don't know what your understanding of law is but please don't even try such a lame defense professionally.

 

[Rajeev]

Stephen

What you have is a bullet wound and the wounded person taking someones name, try that in court without evidence

Same was with Ball Tampering, was it caught on Video? NO..but many were ready to believe the umpire

You have proof, you talk, else just shut it

 

[Rajeev]

No It seems that all of you here are self claimed experts. When the level of taking offense to words reaches the level of monkey(without the 'black' prefix) then its my opinion that things are going too far.

A racist word like '******' is racist, whether a 10 year old uses it or a 30 year old. Will you use the same measure with 'monkey'. So please don't even try comparing the two.


You still don't have the fingerprints on the gun, you don't have the bullet and you don't have the confession to the murder. I don't know what your understanding of law is but please don't even try such a lame defense professionally.

It's termed racist through society, and has history behind it

Symonds said if his mates call him Monkey, its OK? So either he doesn't know what he is talking about or cooked up the whole story to get back for something form the past

IIRC, Symonds did throw a waring after the ODIs in India

 

[stephen]

BCCI acted very badly by chartering a plane, if Harbhajan was proven guilty then what?

India go home and Australia pay for the sins of the touring country?

At the same time, it's hard to take symonds word here too as he is no saint either

When did this come about? When has Symonds ever been accused of being racist?

Procter was utterly biased and should be fired

Untrue. Proctor possibly made a poor judgement call (lack of evidence at the time) but he still had multiple witnesses backing up the accusation.

Hayden?Tendulkar had no business coming in as they didn't hear anything

Hayden heard something, stump mic footage reveals it. Tendulkar didn't hear anything - or at least that is his story today - it seems to change when he changes his underwear.

Ponting belongs to a team which is an institute of sledging, pathetic of him and mates to take this step ( and apparent are now furious on something which never happened )

Sledging is not racism. Sledging has been a part of the sport since it was first conceived, and some of it is quite witty. Racism has no place in modern society.

Media trying to cover up the whole thing as a BCCI deal when a federal judge acquitted Harbhajan of Racism case

Given the stump mic transcript and the evidence given by multiple witnesses, I find it hard to accept that this was nothing more than a BCCI/CA/ICC deal.

India forgive Hogg and instead of reciprocation, Aussies are charging a visiting teams player for an offense they have been guilty of since the beginning of this sport

Hogg was accused to try and distract the media. Once again, the meaning behind what was done is the important thing. It is a subtlety, so I don't expect everyone to understand it, but it is the colour of the meaning which is important (no pun intended). If a black man uses the N word against another black man in jest, the meaning is far different from a white man deriding a black many by using the same word. The language is still the same, but the meaning is what makes the racism. What Hogg said was in no way racist, and he has now been informed that the language was not acceptable. This was Harbi's second offense of a term that he knew was a directly racist comment.

..and now that crazy bowler sreesanth is coming for his antics, the ODIs will be played under a cloud of bitter compromise and poker faced players

It will be an interesting series.

 

[stephen]

Stephen

What you have is a bullet wound and the wounded person taking someones name, try that in court without evidence

Same was with Ball Tampering, was it caught on Video? NO..but many were ready to believe the umpire

You have proof, you talk, else just shut it

It depends on the burden of proof required.

A civil case only requires the probability that an offense was committed. A criminal case requires guilt "beyond reasonable doubt". I believe that this is regarded more as a civil case than a criminal case.

In either case, Harbahjan's response of "No listen, he started it." is an admission of guilt by omission. The meaning in those words is "it is ok for me to say that because I did not initiate the exchange" and not "I did not say what I am accused of". There is no reasonable doubt when confronted with that evidence, and the evidence of multiple witnesses that Harbahjan called Symonds a monkey.

 

[sirdj]

So you are saying that the word monkey has not historically been used to denigrate an entire race? The part of history where a black man had as much rights as '3/5' of a white man because he was considered part monkey escape your knowledge? That was the entire basis of enslaving them - as they weren't really human and they needed to be controlled like animals. Thats where the racial taunt 'monkey' originated. Find historical cartoons from fifty and more years ago in the main stream, and look at the media of the time and you'll see a consistent representation of a black man as a 'half monkey-half man' because thats what they were thought to be.

I do not have a 'post-grad degree' in social history, but I do have something called a basic education, where we learn things like 'social history'.

It seems your education is not good enough, please ask for a refund.

Black Africans were initially sold as slaves because the Arabs and Romans started it and it has more to do with geography and current state of Africa at that point of time. Besides the Africans various other ethnic slaves existed and every ethnic group was considered inferior. From there on the trend just continued.

Darwin's theory on evolution has been always rejected by the southern states who fought for slavery as it contradicts their belief in the Bible. They enslaved the the black man not because he was half monkey but because of the concept of white racial supremacy. They were considered savages not monkeys.

 

[sirdj]

It's termed racist through society, and has history behind it

Symonds said if his mates call him Monkey, its OK? So either he doesn't know what he is talking about or cooked up the whole story to get back for something form the past

IIRC, Symonds did throw a waring after the ODIs in India

What history, besides the stupid monkey sounds which is used in European football please point me to one article which states history about the word 'monkey' as a racial slur..

 

[Dick Rockett]

It seems to me that whether or not Harbhajan called Symonds a monkey or not is of minor consequence in this affair. What really concerns me is that the Indian board were seemingly determined to pull the plug on the tour if they didn't get their way - the extraordinary thing about that being that if their case was so clear cut and Harbhajan was so obviously the victim of an injustice, then why the need to make the threat?

Also interesting to note that some have theorised that CA could have been sued for the premature end of the tour. When the NZ team was close to being bombed in Sri Lanka in '93 the concern was that they would be financially punished for withdrawing, yet in this case the withdrawing team could potentially sue the hosts over what is, in comparison, a trivial issue?

 

[sirdj]

The problem you face in your arguement is that he is right and you are wrong.

Why? because of your opinion?

Did you ever stop to wonder why noone has questioned whether the comment was racist or not? It is because it has been clearly accepted precedent that it is in fact a racist comment, and was clear to all Indian players before the tour began.

Having a precedent does not make something correct, just like chopping people's head off in public has a precedent but does not make it correct. Its just a very crude interpretation of religious law.

 

[Rajeev]

India go home and Australia pay for the sins of the touring country?

If Harbhajan was proven guilty without evidence, every right to


When did this come about? When has Symonds ever been accused of being racist?

LOL, now now, lets not be cheeky here..trying to say he's no saint either in terms of giving it back on the field..but offcourse, folks from his fraternity such as Mcgrahh and Lehmann have been racist b4


Untrue. Proctor possibly made a poor judgement call (lack of evidence at the time) but he still had multiple witnesses backing up the accusation.

Right from Ball Tampering case, his pushes the ban button too quickly, the asians are on the receiving end pretty fast



Hayden heard something, stump mic footage reveals it. Tendulkar didn't hear anything - or at least that is his story today - it seems to change when he changes his underwear.

Sorry, didn't know about underwear fetish..maybe CA and Tony Greig will offer that one of those memorabilias,

http://www.cricketnext.com/news/what-transpired-in-the-harbhajan-hearing/29293-13.html

Hayden: I didn't hear him, but I heard Symonds say "Did you call me a
monkey?"


Sledging is not racism. Sledging has been a part of the sport since it was first conceived, and some of it is quite witty. Racism has no place in modern society.

I am talking abt the 2.8 charge



Given the stump mic transcript and the evidence given by multiple witnesses, I find it hard to accept that this was nothing more than a BCCI/CA/ICC deal.

The deal was to fastrack the fiasco, its a open and shut case, infact I'd wonder of suing symonds and co for sabotage



Hogg was accused to try and distract the media. Once again, the meaning behind what was done is the important thing. It is a subtlety, so I don't expect everyone to understand it, but it is the colour of the meaning which is important (no pun intended). If a black man uses the N word against another black man in jest, the meaning is far different from a white man deriding a black many by using the same word. The language is still the same, but the meaning is what makes the racism. What Hogg said was in no way racist, and he has now been informed that the language was not acceptable. This was Harbi's second offense of a term that he knew was a directly racist comment.

Agreed, it was a deal to show the public but didn't work, instead we got team with red faces and a team showing a bigger heart



It will be an interesting series

If it's played in the right spirit.

Answered, look as a cricket fan I am saddened by these proceedings and hate to see game played in the courts, I just believe some things are better compromised in the background and to get on with the game, BCCI move was really dumb and the australain players shouldn't have gone so far; look they are furious at their own board

So what did we achieve here, noting at all

 

[Rajeev]

What history, besides the stupid monkey sounds which is used in European football please point me to one article which states history about the word 'monkey' as a racial slur..

I was referring to "******", not monkey

Monkey = Racist is laughable, but since someone raised an issue, we had to deal with it

 

[andyc]

Symonds said if his mates call him Monkey, its OK? So either he doesn't know what he is talking about or cooked up the whole story to get back for something form the past

So? I call my mate's ****s all the time, and make a joke here and there when with some mates of mine who are black, but that's because we're mates and we know it's all in good humour. It's totally different when someone you don't know, or an opponent who's trying to get the better of you says the same thing.

 

[Dusty Lee]

What history, besides the stupid monkey sounds which is used in European football please point me to one article which states history about the word 'monkey' as a racial slur..

Symonds sat down with Harbhajan before the tour and told him he didn't like it. Harbhajan knew it yet carried on and said it. He is as guilty as sin and the people who run the game are gutless.

 

[Dusty Lee]

So? I call my mate's ****s all the time, and make a joke here and there when with some mates of mine who are black, but that's because we're mates and we know it's all in good humour. It's totally different when someone you don't know, or an opponent who's trying to get the better of you says the same thing.

I could not agree with you more!!!