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Harbhajan reignites racism storm

Tony

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Monkey

Monkey is racist, Harby knows it is racist, the Indian crowd on the recent tour included a photo and a caption reading something like "why is there monkey among the kangaroos?" among other things.

Anyway the Indians seem to find the swear words directed to them by this Aust side and others over the years just as offensive. I would think that Harby would find being called a ....f..so and so just as offensive as him calling Symonds monkey on the spur of the moment.

This argument is like me saying a b..trd is a type of file and when Hayden used that term to Harby he only meant that Harby was edging the ball alot like when you file the edge of a chair you are making.

So, warn him, fine him but dont suspend him....and get the captains to talk about what offends each team.
 

Slow Love™

International Captain
This brilliant piece, from Gideon Haigh, sums up my view on the matter - the Australian's are precious when they want to be:

Racism is serious. Racism is about the denial of another person's essential humanity on the basis of their skin and their culture. Racism is about embedded prejudices, institutionalised discrimination, real economic and social deprivation.

Racism is South Africa under apartheid - on which, say it softly, Australia was the last cricket country to lower the boom. Racism is Robert Mugabe - against whose country the Australian cricket team would seemingly have been happy to play had it not been for the Federal Government.
To say, then, that one cricketer calling another a monkey on a cricket field is racism is to define the idea frivolously. Was Symonds belittled? Was he hurt? Was he disadvantaged?

Monkey, monkey

Curiously, when a few score Indians made monkey noises directed at Symonds at Vadodara last October, he went out of his way to state that he had not made any complaint, and affected not to care.

"I'm not the most deadly serious bloke," he said. "Life goes on."

Yet somehow Harbhajan's emission is now the gravest of offences and befitting of the severest sanction. Regrettably, the Australian complaint smacks of cricketers who in the process of scaling great heights of excellence have sealed themselves off from reality.

[snip]
Well, I agree that the Aussies can certainly be precious when they want to be, but I have a few issues with Haigh's piece.

Firstly, I dislike the cheap shot he takes in announcing Australia was the last country to "lower the boom" on South Africa during the apartheid period. It's only a year or so earlier that the ECB invited South Africa to tour their shores after the D'Oliviera fiasco (during which their conduct would hardly be described as adamantly principled - they certainly flirted with appeasing the Saffies by dropping him from the squad), and it took threats of boycotting the Edinnburgh Games by the majority of countries in the Commonwealth to bring about the tour's cancellation. Beyond that, what the ****'s it got to do with anything? New Zealand were sending official rugby teams to South Africa as late as 1976. Does that carry some poignant weight when it comes to how valid it would be for a black Kiwi player (or his captain) to object to racial vilification today?

Secondly, he trivialises racial abuse by reducing (and this has happened a lot in these threads) it to an issue of how much Symonds was genuinely aggrieved. That's irrelevant. The sport has a code, and while there is contention around whether Harbhajan said what he's accused of, if he violated that code, he must be punished. It really is simple as that. I don't think we really want to go down the path of measuring our response to racial abuse by just how upset the victim appears to be.

I believe that Symonds made an error in downplaying the monkey abuse at Vadodara, ironically I think due to an Australian "don't be a tell-tale" and "don't whine, just get along with things" mentality that permeates our sportsmen. I think he was extremely conscious of being labelled a dobber or a princess - this was pointless, because he was labelled one anyway, including by guys like Mark Waugh at home. From what I've read, in the wake of the incidents during the ODI tour of India, both teams were pointedly advised at the beginning of this current series not to cross the line into racial abuse, and to report it officially if it took place, which might go some way to explain the attention paid this incident.

I agree that Ponting's team has room for a lot of improvement in the spirit in which they play the game, and my opinions of Ponting as a leader are probably well known enough, they're not very positive. I do think their celebrations at the match's conclusion were unedifying (including the yelling at Tony Greig), though they don't break any rules of the game. So I don't feel very compelled to be defensive about their behaviour. But I don't really appreciate Haigh's attempts to make this about my country's history re: South African apartheid OR the Australian team's "happiness" to tour Zimbabwe - we know that a lot of players weren't particularly happy about it at all, and the issue is far more complicated than Haigh pretends it is (and this is coming from someone dead against us touring there). I think that's sloppy and prejudicial, and given the respect he commands, I think he should do better. Way better.

Lastly, I don't know why he has a crack about Harbhajan suffering the "severest sanction" either. Let's be realistic here, he got suspended for three tests. Granted again, there is a dispute over his guilt, but if he was guilty, it's hardly a life ban or a year out of the game. Of course there's a social stigma to being charged, but surely that's going to be the case if you're going to do anything to hold someone to account for racism in the game, no?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
At what point do you draw the line though?
We've always known that's an incredibly difficult question to answer. "Racist abuse" is very clearly not the answer, I'd say. I think this absurd shenanegans shows that. It needs to be far more stringent.

It's becoming clearer and clearer that this line is going to have to be somewhere very, very strict. It won't be easy to produce something fair and enforceable, but hopefully the authorities can have a decent stab at something a damn sight better than the legal-actions rule. I'd say completely cut-out nouns for starters: no using names, of any kind, directed at other players. So "bastard" is as off-limits as "plank" or anything, probably even best to ban "guy" or "fella" (not that anyone'd say that without looking ridiculous).

Ideally, no direct talking to opposition, either. Talk to your team-mates, fine, use the "hey Warnie, Hussain plays with a real open face doesn't he?" stuff. But even though I doubt anyone'd be terribly bothered if it got onto "that open face'll get you out today Nass", I reckon it'd be safer to ban that too. In any case, there's several articles I've read in the last few days which point-out that the best bowlers really don't need to say anything anyway, if you can't get batsmen out with your bowling you're really not going to make much improvement with a few words, any fool can do that. No-one can interpret a stare or a smile\nod down the pitch as a personal insult.

You're obviously never going to simply ban any words out on the pitch at all, but there's much talk of "what's said on the field stays on the field" and all that crap. Well, if nothing's said between opposition players on the field, nothing even needs to stay on the field, so problem solved.
 

Johnners

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Read in the Courier Mail this morning that Hogg was being charged for "Racial Abuse" wtf? It's alleged Hogg walked by Kumble and said "I can't wait to run through you bastards". Now it was my understanding that "Bastard" wasn't considered racial, just highly offensive in a personal sense to Indians as it's frowned upon to have children out of wedlock. Am I missing something here?

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23030356-10389,00.html

Also found this article ITSTL. Particularly:

Kumble said he also had no knowledge of Symonds telling Harbhajan in Mumbai last October that he found the word "monkey" racist.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23031686-5003413,00.html
 
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silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Read in the Courier Mail this morning that Hogg was being charged for "Racial Abuse" wtf? It's alleged Hogg walked by Kumble and said "I can't wait to run through you bastards". Now it was my understanding that "Bastard" wasn't considered racial, just highly offensive in a personal sense to Indians as it's frowned upon to have children out of wedlock. Am I missing something here?

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23030356-10389,00.html

Also found this article ITSTL. Particularly:



http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23031686-5003413,00.html
Yea, I can't see how it would be racist.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Read in the Courier Mail this morning that Hogg was being charged for "Racial Abuse" wtf? It's alleged Hogg walked by Kumble and said "I can't wait to run through you bastards". Now it was my understanding that "Bastard" wasn't considered racial, just highly offensive in a personal sense to Indians as it's frowned upon to have children out of wedlock. Am I missing something here?

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23030356-10389,00.html

Also found this article ITSTL. Particularly:



http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23031686-5003413,00.html
I think its pretty much a charge trumped up because Indians are pissed proctor took the word of one side over another, so they want to see if he'll do the same here.
 

Johnners

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It's not the same sort of situation though. It seems clear that Hogg DID say it, hence the title "Hogg says he meant no malice".
 

sideshowtim

Banned
I think its pretty much a charge trumped up because Indians are pissed proctor took the word of one side over another, so they want to see if he'll do the same here.
Yeah, it's very immature stuff by the Indians.

If bastard truly was an offensive word to Indians, it would've come out years ago and a charge would've already been laid on a cricketer and we'd be no longer allowed to say it to them.
 

funnygirl

State Regular
It's not the same sort of situation though. It seems clear that Hogg DID say it, hence the title "Hogg says he meant no malice".
Bastard means ''mom is a whore '' can be considered offensive .It is in India .If u take that way .May not be racist .

I don't think there is any racist word for Indians .They get offended by certain personal insults .
 

funnygirl

State Regular
Yeah, it's very immature stuff by the Indians.

If bastard truly was an offensive word to Indians, it would've come out years ago and a charge would've already been laid on a cricketer and we'd be no longer allowed to say it to them.
I remember Mcgrath calling Jayasurya a black monkey ? what was the effect ?
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Yeah, it's very immature stuff by the Indians.

If bastard truly was an offensive word to Indians, it would've come out years ago and a charge would've already been laid on a cricketer and we'd be no longer allowed to say it to them.
Yep, find it somewhat difficult to believe they haven't been called that or worse by the Aussies over the years.

I remember Mcgrath calling Jayasurya a black monkey ? what was the effect ?
Nothing because there's doubt that it even happened.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
It's not the same sort of situation though. It seems clear that Hogg DID say it, hence the title "Hogg says he meant no malice".
Yea. Also they could be challenging the whole set of rules, saying if what's offensive to player x gets to be challenged, then why not what's offensive to them?

Yeah, it's very immature stuff by the Indians.

If bastard truly was an offensive word to Indians, it would've come out years ago and a charge would've already been laid on a cricketer and we'd be no longer allowed to say it to them.
Well, if you're claiming it's not offensive in India, you're not going to win that battle (just like people who think monkey is inoffensive are not going to win theirs). And to be honest, guys like Gavaskar have been saying that for years anyway (that words like bastard, ****, etc are offensive and should be banned).
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Yep, find it somewhat difficult to believe they haven't been called that or worse by the Aussies over the years..
That's an odd bit of reasoning. Because they've put up with it before, means they should put up with it forever. Anyway, I'm sure they will start reporting it now. It'll be interesting to see how many players get called up after the next match.
 

Doug Sob

Cricket Spectator
Hogg will probably get off because there was nothing really racist about what he said, although Cricket Australia should internally suspend him for a few games to appease the Indian cricket Gods, making everyone happy again at no real loss because Hogg wont play at the WACA anyway after failing to pick up any final day wickets on the SCG.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
That's an odd bit of reasoning. Because they've put up with it before, means they should put up with it forever. Anyway, I'm sure they will start reporting it now. It'll be interesting to see how many players get called up after the next match.
Not what I was saying. Saying that they should have reported it right from the start rather than bring out when politically convenient to do so.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Not what I was saying. Saying that they should have reported it right from the start rather than bring out when politically convenient to do so.
But that's the point. Their argument is we thought we were supposed to keep it on the field? Now that you're going to go report stuff, so we will as well.
 

sideshowtim

Banned
Well, if you're claiming it's not offensive in India, you're not going to win that battle (just like people who think monkey is inoffensive are not going to win theirs). And to be honest, guys like Gavaskar have been saying that for years anyway (that words like bastard, ****, etc are offensive and should be banned).
There's a difference between something racist and something offensive though. Can't the Indians see that? Offensive comments are a part of the game and are made in every single match. Every single match. Even by the Indians themselves. Racism is a filthy mark on any sport and needs to be eradicated.

You can't compare something offensive to something racist. Our society generally functions day to day with 'offensive' comments to each other, whether they be banter or even serious. Our society can't function with racist comments though, and that really divides people. Why am I even arguing this? Isn't it common sense?
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
But that's the point. Their argument is we thought we were supposed to keep it on the field? Now that you're going to go report stuff, so we will as well.
Childish all-round, really. Neither side has exactly covered themselves in glory on this one.

The one I really feel sorry for in this whole mess is Bucknor. He's been dropped like a hot rock by the ICC. Anyone know where he is anymore? Is he even still alive? Does anyone even care?
 

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