Harbhajan reignites racism storm

[vic_orthdox]

Indians are showing poor form in dishing it out not to the party that used to give it to them, but someone of a different race altogether

So it'd be OK if they were racially abusing, for example, Phil Jaques?

 

[Cevno]

No, it's stupid if you know anything about Torts. Neither Symonds or Ponting made the comments publicly, the info about what Harbhajan is alleged to have said has been media speculation, not comments attributed to either Symonds or Ponting directly. And that's if they're proveably untrue and since, at this stage, it would appear that if they're not proveably true than they're not proveably untrue either, it's all crap and bluster from the India VP of the BCCI.

These allegations are very serious and if the aussies are faking it then it would be unfair if they are not banned even harshly as you could tarnish someone's reputation very seriously.

Sunil gavaskar today rightly put it that the aussie media is part of their support staff.
I wish The indian team appoints some lawyer and sues all the newspaper's in australia for some false and ferocious things written about the players in those.

 

[GIMH]

It might be plausible, but Harbhajan certainly didn't help his cause by expressing such confusion about what the Aussies might possibly be offended by when he was apparently saying nothing and "just trying to play well and win the match".

Myself, I don't really know what the hearing is for. If the umpires didn't hear it and the word of the players isn't enough, I don't really see what can be accomplished. I find it plausible that Harbhajan might have said monkey because casual offensively racial comments these days frequently aren't about a genuine belief in the inferiority of somebody's ethnic background so much as a way to rile your opponent/interlocuter because you know it will sting. And certainly, the Indian players know this by now, and Harbhajan gets so riled up it just wouldn't surprise me.

Either way, it's likely to be an utter mess with Mike Proctor in charge.

Hey, when did you come back?! I didn't realise - great to see you posting, anyway

 

[Top_Cat]

These allegations are very serious and if the aussies are faking it then it would be unfair if they are not banned even harshly as you could tarnish someone's reputation very seriously.

No, you couldn't They're supposed to be private ruminations ergo they are (and should be) protected to protect both the freedom of speech of the Aussie players AND the reputation of the accused party.

Sunil gavaskar today rightly put it that the aussie media is part of their support staff.

Of course. Difference between Australia and India in this regard is?

I wish The indian team appoints some lawyer and sues all the newspaper's in australia for some false and ferocious things written about the players in those.

Good luck with that.

 

[vic_orthdox]

tee he he.

 

[Slow Love™]

Hey, when did you come back?! I didn't realise - great to see you posting, anyway

Thanks mate, I just came back today. GTSYT. In spite of all the controversy, it's nice to have a series with some real fight in it.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Rumoured now that Harbhajan is recieving a 3 test ban, according to TEC in the official thread.

 

[Evermind]

So it'd be OK if they were racially abusing, for example, Phil Jaques?

Obviously not, and that's not what I was saying. It's pretty disingenuous to suggest that.

 

[silentstriker]

No sympathy for racists. If he did say what is alleged, he got off lightly. Just because racists in the past got off lightly, doesn't mean we need to keep doing it.

 

[Cevno]

No sympathy for racists. If he did say what is alleged, he got off lightly. Just because racists in the past got off lightly, doesn't mean we need to keep doing it.

"monkey"is hardly racist and hogg should get the same ban.

 

[silentstriker]

"monkey"is hardly racist and hogg should get the same ban.

You are sadly ignorant of race relations and history if you don't believe monkey is racist.

 

[luckyeddie]

"monkey"is hardly racist and hogg should get the same ban.

It depends very much on context - and believe me, the term 'monkey' can be a highly racist epithet.

Black footballers were often subject to 'monkey noises' and having bananas thrown at them. It used to be extremely common in the 1970's, but thankfully such activities are rare now.

Unless you're in Serbia.

Or Madrid.

 

[Slow Love™]

So I'm guessing the words of the players in the end was enough - interesting. I guess it's also possible that Harbhajan stuffed up under questioning or implicated himself. I'll be interested to read whatever details are released about the hearing tomorrow.

One thing that a few people have mentioned is that the cultural differences issue in the wake of all this (coupled with the tit-for-tat charges against Hogg) may well result in a tighter policing of sledging in general.

TBH, I don't think I really see this as a bad thing. I don't really buy the defence that Indians don't appreciate or understand how seriously the monkey/race issue is regarded over here (and by those of African heritage), but one thing I do accept is that terms and expletives that we Australians use frequently is obviously regarded far more seriously on the subcontinent (and other places).

Sometimes when it's your own team doing the talking, it can be a bit of a blind spot - I know that during last year's ODI triseries, I found Paul Nixon's tirades and abuse behind the stumps to be fairly ridiculous, and so did Ian Chappell. I really don't see that losing this is any great sacrifice to make, as it obviously contributes to ill-will between the teams, and it doesn't seem to me to be a grand tradition to enshrine as desirable behaviour for international cricket players. I don't mean remarks like "gonna be a new batsman at the crease soon" or Sangakarra style witticisms, but rubbish like "you're ****, you ****", "Can't ****ing bat, you ******" and the like, where we really are talking about language that in most professional contexts would be regarded as obviously abusive.

 

[Cevno]

It depends very much on context - and believe me, the term 'monkey' can be a highly racist epithet.

Black footballers were often subject to 'monkey noises' and having bananas thrown at them. It used to be extremely common in the 1970's, but thankfully such activities are rare now.

Unless you're in Serbia.

Or Madrid.

Now every player is suppose to know race relations of different people while abusing.
Why not make a chart of what is racist to whom?
I think all personal abuse should be cut out and all abusers should be banned.
But sadly for the aussies it would mean all their team and most domestic players.

 

[jeevan]

So I'm guessing the words of the players in the end was enough - interesting. I guess it's also possible that Harbhajan stuffed up under questioning or implicated himself. I'll be interested to read whatever details are released about the hearing tomorrow.

One thing that a few people have mentioned is that the cultural differences issue in the wake of all this (coupled with the tit-for-tat charges against Hogg) may well result in a tighter policing of sledging in general.

TBH, I don't think I really see this as a bad thing. I don't really buy the defence that Indians don't appreciate or understand how seriously the monkey/race issue is regarded over here (and by those of African heritage), but one thing I do accept is that terms and expletives that we Australians use frequently is obviously regarded far more seriously on the subcontinent (and other places).

Sometimes when it's your own team doing the talking, it can be a bit of a blind spot - I know that during last year's ODI triseries, I found Paul Nixon's tirades and abuse behind the stumps to be fairly ridiculous, and so did Ian Chappell. I really don't see that losing this is any great sacrifice to make, as it obviously contributes to ill-will between the teams, and it doesn't seem to me to be a grand tradition to enshrine as desirable behaviour for international cricket players.

Agreed. It will be a better international sport without the sledging. Pretty poor to regulate what is acceptable or not. If Harbhajan said what he did (and Tendulkar and the 2 umpires didnt hear it while half the fielders apparently did), it is over the line.

But I also find it odd that people seriously expect that, for eg, other cultures should accept the casual usage of bastard for your opponents just because it is fine in Australian domestic cricket. Inzamaman would get incensed, to the point of losing it completely and affecting the game, on the "aloo" taunt (potato). While not racist, and also devoid of all ***ual and parental innuendo - clearly was not helping the game.

 

[silentstriker]

Now every player is suppose to know race relations of different people while abusing.
Why not make a chart of what is racist to whom?
I think all personal abuse should be cut out and all abusers should be banned.
But sadly for the aussies it would mean all their team and most domestic players.

Ignorance is not an excuse. If he had any doubts - the Symonds row over the exact same thing in India should have been sufficient education on whats appropriate. Get rid of him, I have no sympathy if he said it. The fact that Lehmann didn't get a life ban still rankles me. Harbhajan should not be exempt either.

 

[silentstriker]

It's official. India will appeal.

 

[social]

Ignorance is not an excuse. If he had any doubts - the Symonds row over the exact same thing in India should have been sufficient education on whats appropriate. Get rid of him, I have no sympathy if he said it. The fact that Lehmann didn't get a life ban still rankles me. Harbhajan should not be exempt either.

Exactly

 

[BoyBrumby]

I'm inclined to agree that Harbhajan couldn't have been entirely unaware of the sensitivity around "monkey" as a pleasantry, particularly in light of the minor furore after the ODI series in India over the crowd (or rather small sections of the crowd) using it. The fact he denied saying it at all seems to suggest he wasn't totally ignorant of its racial undertones as well.

That said, cultural differences do have to be taken into account. I remember on CW itself there was something of a to-do over the first four letters of "Pakistan" being filtered when used separately. Here in the UK it's considered a racial slur more-or-less on a par with the n-word, but not apparently elsewhere.

If a UK poster used it it would be in the full knowledge of its connotations & could rightly expect a ban, but it's possible a poster from elsewhere might have been ignorant of this so a more measured response would be appropriate.

 

[Evermind]

That said, cultural differences do have to be taken into account. I remember on CW itself there was something of a to-do over the first four letters of "Pakistan" being filtered when used separately. Here in the UK it's considered a racial slur more-or-less on a par with the n-word, but not apparently elsewhere.

If a UK poster used it it would be in the full knowledge of its connotations & could rightly expect a ban, but it's possible a poster from elsewhere might have been ignorant of this so a more measured response would be appropriate.

Woah! I had no idea that was a term of abuse - I had used it a few times before and it never showed up, and it genuinely surprised me. I would do well to keep that in mind, considering I'll be going to England soon.

Anyway, yes, there should be a move to get rid of all abuse from the game - this would mean that stuff like "******", "bastard" etc are all deemed abusive. That's perfectly fair IMO. The Australians can do whatever in their domestic circuit, but it should be stated clearly that such barbarism isn't allowed on the international field.