*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[Sanz]

So, ICC, ACB and the players aren't trustworthy. ?

Good job of giving a new spin to what I said. But let me say this again and one last time to you. Hopefully you will understand.

Those involved in covering up the Waugh/Warne issues do not have any credibility on the issue and are not trustworthy on this matter and I dont care if that is ICC, ACB or Players involved.

 

[Sanz]

Warne failed the drug test multiple times. One in early december (I guess before the injury) and one in January(after the injury).

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/25/1046064037018.html

 

[subshakerz]

If it was or wasn't we won't know. The fact that he did do that extricates him from the kind of villainy you suggest.
.

Come on, so he goes to the board to tell of a test result that would have found out anyways, and that automatically absolves him of doing anything wrong? I find that hard to believe.

 

[Ikki]

The problem is with your Internet surfing skills, if you cant locate those articles. The way you have been defending Warne, I dont think it would make any difference to your opinion even If I provided you those links.

Well, if you could do me the favour of linking me to one - I know it's often some trouble - then I'd be obliged. Until now, I'd only heard of John the Bookie. Not Bookies.

Shane Warne's contact with 'Bookies' is not a figment of my imagination, it has been used by cricket authors and administrators for long time, I certainly dont make things up on my own. You can chose to believe whatever you want to and live the denial land as much as you want to.

Well, I'd like to read those pieces to see for myself. Apart from 1 bookie I can't remember anything.

 

[Ikki]

Good job of giving a new spin to what I said. But let me say this again and one last time to you. Hopefully you will understand.

Those involved in covering up the Waugh/Warne issues do not have any credibility on the issue and are not trustworthy on this matter and I dont care if that is ICC, ACB or Players involved.

Well you see, you've hit a snag. The ACB could have an intention into keeping it a secret, of course, they're their players. Also the players themselves could have the reason for not bringing it out even further but obviously had a reason not to. What for the ICC?

And again, even that is irrelevant. WHAT does THAT have TO DO with MATCH-fixing?

Warne's performance was slipping before he started taking Steroids.

Warne's performance between 1998-2001 (4 years) :-

35 tests, 135 wickets, avg. 32.25, SR - 65.3

His performance 2002 onwards :-

48 Tests, 284 Wickets, Avg. 23.52, SR - 48.2

Heck That's (Barry) Bondsque difference in his performance.

Yeah, table the period where he was largely injured/**** out of form and compare it to his legendary final years. Great pick-up there. Now we know you're even-handed.

Warne failed the drug test multiple times. One in early december (I guess before the injury) and one in January(after the injury).

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/25/1046064037018.html

And wouldn't that make sense? He was using fluid tablets even before he got injured to 'improve' his appearance? Now it's not solely after his injury where he 'needed' to heal quicker.

Funny thing is, again, he reveals it even though there weren't enough traces in the sample to give a positive test. Doesn't sound like a cheat, just an honest duffer.

Come on, so he goes to the board to tell of a test result that would have found out anyways, and that automatically absolves him of doing anything wrong? I find that hard to believe.

Not at all, it doesn't exonerate him. But you'd think someone who was taking his chances (if he had drugged up knowingly) would have tried to taken it before it was readable...and if it was in the A sample try and hope the B sample may conflict. Someone looking to cheat would lose nothing by waiting. Only someone who was regretful about their own ignorance would do that.

 

[Sanz]

Yeah, table the period where he was largely injured/**** out of form and compare it to his legendary final years. Great pick-up there. Now we know you're even-handed.

Yeah he was first injured then out of form over a period of 4 years, then suddenly he happen to test positive, after that he reacoverd also as well as got his form back too. All coincidence.

The guy was educated about it by ACB, he still took the medicine saying that he didn't pay attention to what was being said in all those classess he went to.

 

[Sanz]

And wouldn't that make sense? He was using fluid tablets even before he got injured to 'improve' his appearance? Now it's not solely after his injury where he 'needed' to heal quicker.

Funny thing is, again, he reveals it even though there weren't enough traces in the sample to give a positive test. Doesn't sound like a cheat, just an honest duffer..

Oh please he is not the honest Spinner you are making him out to be. He didn't disclose it on his own. Perhaps you should have read the link I posted before posting. It was already in the papers(SMH) before he admitted, Warne even tried to threaten them with legal action if they didn't apologize. Herald stood by the story and Warne had no other way but to accept it and he tried giving it another spin. Since you didn't take the time to read the report, here is teh relevent part :-


"...Warne's belated admission of a second use of a banned drug confirmed a report in the Herald last Wednesday. It also came as the Herald was intending to publish another report stating this, and that the 20-page findings of his drug case would be released by the Australian Cricket Board today.


Following last week's revelation of the second tablet, Warne's legal representatives sent a letter threatening defamation action if the Herald did not publish an apology.

The Herald stood by the story which Warne effectively confirmed in his television appearance last night.

Warne, who has been on Channel 9's payroll, was not asked by Martin why, in earlier public statements, he did not admit to using diuretics on more than one occasion. Warne said the December 12 drug test "showed small traces of the same thing [diuretics]".

The minor traces of the diuretic in Warne's December 12 sample were at insufficient levels to charge him with a positive drug test.

For this reason, it is believed the Australian Sports Drug Agency then targeted Warne for a follow-up test, which the agency did on January 21..."

 

[Sanz]

Apart from 1 bookie I can't remember anything.

Ratan Mehta.

 

[Top_Cat]

I am into training myself (though dont know much about roids). Is this strictly right? Surely hypertrophy of some substantial kind needs to occur in order to lead to gains in muscle?

Depends on how many workouts you do a day. The blokes I knew were starting to see gains with two relatively light workouts a day (as they were able to recover much faster). Once they started seeing that, they upped their weights and started to develop the condom-full-of-walnuts look (yuck).

 

[Bracken]

Ratan Mehta.

Here we go again.

Right. So you are claiming that Warne met Mehta, and that this supports your view that Warne is a match fixer.

Not to let the facts get in the way of anything, but the link between Mehta and Warne comes from the unsubstantiated statement of an unnamed "Indian Businessman", that was reported some five years after the alleged meeting. Funnily enough, that meeting wasn't witnessed by anyone else, even though it supposedly took place in a busy restaurant in the middle of London. Even more strange is the fact that even though England is the place where the media is more interested in Warne than anywhere- including Australia- and that he would readily recognisable by a massive part of the population, not a single other witness to this alleged meeting was uncovered. I'm sure you will slap on the tinfoil hat and come up with some great conspiracy that explains all of this away, but add to that the fact that Warne not only denied meeting Mehta, but went so far as to say he'd never heard of the guy, and that Mehta denied having ever met Warne at any time.

But hey- an unnamed person made an allegation five years after the fact, so it must be true, right?

 

[Ikki]

Yeah he was first injured then out of form over a period of 4 years, then suddenly he happen to test positive, after that he reacoverd also as well as got his form back too. All coincidence.

The guy was educated about it by ACB, he still took the medicine saying that he didn't pay attention to what was being said in all those classess he went to.

Yeah, when he was injured and learning how to bowl again against the best players of spin...

Anyway, you're trying to say he took performance enhancing drugs now or that he healed quicker? Because his skill before injury is not upto question. If he had taken it, anabolic steroids didn't make him a better bowler.

And Warne has never been one to listen to health advice. His diet consists of beer, fast food and smokes.

Oh please he is not the honest Spinner you are making him out to be. He didn't disclose it on his own. Perhaps you should have read the link I posted before posting. It was already in the papers(SMH) before he admitted, Warne even tried to threaten them with legal action if they didn't apologize. Herald stood by the story and Warne had no other way but to accept it and he tried giving it another spin. Since you didn't take the time to read the report, here is teh relevent part :-


"...Warne's belated admission of a second use of a banned drug confirmed a report in the Herald last Wednesday. It also came as the Herald was intending to publish another report stating this, and that the 20-page findings of his drug case would be released by the Australian Cricket Board today.


Following last week's revelation of the second tablet, Warne's legal representatives sent a letter threatening defamation action if the Herald did not publish an apology.

The Herald stood by the story which Warne effectively confirmed in his television appearance last night.

Warne, who has been on Channel 9's payroll, was not asked by Martin why, in earlier public statements, he did not admit to using diuretics on more than one occasion. Warne said the December 12 drug test "showed small traces of the same thing [diuretics]".

The minor traces of the diuretic in Warne's December 12 sample were at insufficient levels to charge him with a positive drug test.

For this reason, it is believed the Australian Sports Drug Agency then targeted Warne for a follow-up test, which the agency did on January 21..."

I did read it. Like most of your stuff in this thread it's garbage. It's libel. What you try to infer from these pieces is overboard.

There weren't traces enough to test positive. He could have denied it easily. Yet he spills the beans. I think you're straw clutching. Even if the Herald did leak it out, he could have denied it. That's the point. That's why it is funny. If he really wanted to hide it he could have still denied it . So dumb he's spilled it. And as aforesaid, it actually makes the whole situation look more stable on Warne's part. He didn't just take them prior to the WC where he 'miraculously' recovered, he took them before that because he is so bloody vain.

 

[Ikki]

Ratan Mehta.

Too much garbage.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/16/1076779909896.html?from=storyrhs

The businessman has told the ACSU he saw Warne and Mehta emerging from the Pizza Pomodero restaurant in London's Knightsbridge, along with West Indian Brian Lara and a third man, thought by the businessman to have been another cricketer. Warne said yesterday that man was, in fact, English Premier League soccer star Dwight Yorke, Lara's friend and countryman.

I suppose Lara and Yorke were in on it too.

But as far as the reported meeting between Warne and Mehta is concerned, both men yesterday insisted it had not happened. Mehta went further, disparaging the reputation of the businessman who says he saw them together. Outlook has not published the man's name, owing to its fears for his safety.

The businessman. Any idea who?

Warne said: "This story is total rubbish and completely untrue. The only time I have had dinner with Brian Lara in London was at the Pizza Pomodero with his manager, David Manassi, and my good friend Dwight Yorke. As far as Ratan Mehta is concerned, I have never even heard of him before."

Mehta said the claims about him in the Outlook article were "all bull****".

"They're saying I was boasting about players and fixing," he said. "C'mon, if you're doing something, you're not that stupid that you're boasting at parties in front of 10 people. It's commonsense."

Mehta also cast doubts about the "credentials" of the businessman making the allegations, saying he had recently faced charges in court. The Herald last night learned the businessman had faced charges on claims he attempted to extort money from a jeweller. The case was not yet completed, but the businessman has had his passport returned after it was originally seized.

Yeah. As I said, only John the Bookie. Singular.

 

[Ikki]

Depends on how many workouts you do a day. The blokes I knew were starting to see gains with two relatively light workouts a day (as they were able to recover much faster). Once they started seeing that, they upped their weights and started to develop the condom-full-of-walnuts look (yuck).

Yeah, my mate is a personal trainer/bodybuilder. What you say is true.

 

[Sanz]

There weren't traces enough to test positive. He could have denied it easily. Yet he spills the beans. I think you're straw clutching. Even if the Herald did leak it out, he could have denied it. That's the point. That's why it is funny. If he really wanted to hide it he could have still denied it . So dumb he's spilled it. And as aforesaid, it actually makes the whole situation look more stable on Warne's part. He didn't just take them prior to the WC where he 'miraculously' recovered, he took them before that because he is so bloody vain.

You clearly are reading what you want to read and not what is actually written in the link. Warne couldn't have denied it even if he wanted to because Herald was going to publish another report on this. If Warnie was so honest why did he threaten to sue Herald ? Obviously he didn't the story to come out in public.

If he was knowingly taking it to lose weight, why did he say that mum gave him ? Let me guess mum was giving him the pills all the time and he didn't notice it until he got caught.

Warnie's performance level was slipping, as I showed earlier. He noticed it and started taking the juice, obviously he was smart enough and educated enough on the subject to know about the masking agent.

 

[Sanz]

Yeah. As I said, only John the Bookie. Singular.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20061222/ai_n17072929/pg_1
Let's see if you can find the following statement in the above article

"...When match-fixing was threatening the game's fabric, it emerged that he had flirted with the illegal bookies..."

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/content/story/75165.html

"..As a result of the investigation, Waugh was fined $ 10,000 and Warne $ 8000 - the fines both being set in excess of the money received from the bookies. .."

If you can really find the two quotes in the above links you will know that I dont really cook up stories for the sake of it, they are reported in the media and I quote them from there.

Now you can continue to explain the Bookie vs. Bookies, it doesn't really matter to me. Wait for your next spin on it.

 

[Sanz]

I suppose Lara and Yorke were in on it too.

Lara was never fined by any board. Warne was.

 

[Sanz]

Too much garbage.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/16/1076779909896.html?from=storyrhs

Yeah like Warne has so much credibility on the issue that people are going to believe him.

 

[JBH001]

Depends on how many workouts you do a day. The blokes I knew were starting to see gains with two relatively light workouts a day (as they were able to recover much faster). Once they started seeing that, they upped their weights and started to develop the condom-full-of-walnuts look (yuck).

Ah, thats what I meant. I just was not sure what you meant in your earlier post when you seemed to imply that gains are possible without even working out - something I found rather surprising (I dont know much about roids and am not a p/t but do have a considerable degree of experience in training - not that that really means much I guess). Some form of exercise is required for the body to begin to rebuild itself better under the influence of steroids, if even a minimal amount.

Come to that I dont know if diuretics would have that effect as they are mainly about water loss, and any advantages they give in terms of weight loss are likely to be temporary and essentially unsubstantial (compared that is, to a better weight loss regime of fat loss and muscle gain from weight training or even fat and muscle loss from running - although the physiques attained by these methods are usually markedly different).

 

[Ikki]

You clearly are reading what you want to read and not what is actually written in the link. Warne couldn't have denied it even if he wanted to because Herald was going to publish another report on this. If Warnie was so honest why did he threaten to sue Herald ? Obviously he didn't the story to come out in public.

I'm not saying he is honest. I am saying he is stupid. But whether he is stupid or not, the sequence of events actually does much to extricate him from this suspicion.

If he was knowingly taking it to lose weight, why did he say that mum gave him ? Let me guess mum was giving him the pills all the time and he didn't notice it until he got caught.

Why wouldn't it be his mother? His mother could have started it off with him and he could have obviously saw some positive events. Regardless if his mother gave it or otherwise, it does seem to point more to his vanity than his 'cheating' as some seem to suggest.

Warnie's performance level was slipping, as I showed earlier. He noticed it and started taking the juice, obviously he was smart enough and educated enough on the subject to know about the masking agent.

Well he was also injured when bowling in some series and they weren't the kind of injuries where you heal and you go bowling back to normal. You have to go through the process of learning how to bowl again because you're physically deformed (well, not what you were). How this connects to juicing up and bowling better, I don't know. How you made the connection that he knew about his form and hence ended up taking 'juice' to perform better, I don't know. It seems you pulled it from your rear end.

First, it was said he was using anabolic steroids to help him recover. Now it's that he used performance enhancing drugs to become better? Stick to being wrong at one thing at a time.

 

[Ikki]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20061222/ai_n17072929/pg_1
Let's see if you can find the following statement in the above article

"...When match-fixing was threatening the game's fabric, it emerged that he had flirted with the illegal bookies..."

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/content/story/75165.html

"..As a result of the investigation, Waugh was fined $ 10,000 and Warne $ 8000 - the fines both being set in excess of the money received from the bookies. .."

If you can really find the two quotes in the above links you will know that I dont really cook up stories for the sake of it, they are reported in the media and I quote them from there.

But you're cooking up a conclusion on the basis of...nothing. You can't even point to the bookie. Any article can make an allegation, but who was it, if true. This is the ******** line of reasoning that just shouldn't even be entertained. I mean, FFS, you didn't even see the difference between what Cronje did and what Warne did. Just really seems you're out of the loop.

Now you can continue to explain the Bookie vs. Bookies, it doesn't really matter to me. Wait for your next spin on it.

Hahaha, let's see...because the article says "bookies", it somehow proves there was more than one? The article doesn't even mention who the bookies are. Nor is there any case where there has been a bookie other than John The Bookie. The title is "Waugh, Warne speak on bookies scandal". Which other bookie were they both involved with?

The Mehta case you put forth is only Warne, not Waugh. Yet if we were to follow your way of reading it, Waugh was also in another scandal with Warne. LOL Gee...