*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[Ikki]

Err, he is a professional sportsman. Like the hundreds who have come before who look for an edge in performance, or a way to speed up their recovery, or to put on muscle, etc. Technically, he is a cheat because he took the masking agent. The fact that he recovered so much faster means the possibility turns into a strong probability for mine. Clearly not for you though, which is fine.

Didn't we go through that in the Parkinson thread that he was shown not to have taken anything anyway?

 

[subshakerz]

You get banned for the possibility, not the probability. You seem to have a tough time distinguishing the two.

I don't really think it's important to mention the possibility, but when you talk about it as if Warne doing this is a probability you are making an insulting generalization of the man. If you think Warne is a cheat, then frankly you don't know Warne. And really, nothing more to discuss.

Nobody is infallible. Even great cricketers get caught cheating once in a while. You make it seem as if Warne's reputation makes him bulletproof from any allegation of cheating.

It's a subjective thing, I suppose, but not only was Warne's testimony vague and unconvincing, and his opinion doubtable to begin with, but the circumstances were such that it seems more likely that the shoulder injury was the reason behind the diuretic. A combination of factors. But we can agree to disagree.

 

[Ikki]

Nobody is infallible. Even great cricketers get caught cheating once in a while. You make it seem as if Warne's reputation makes him bulletproof from any allegation of cheating.

It's a subjective thing, I suppose, but not only was Warne's testimony vague and unconvincing, and his opinion doubtable to begin with, but the circumstances were such that it seems more likely that the shoulder injury was the reason behind the diuretic. A combination of factors. But we can agree to disagree.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. Obviously, Warne is a big reason for why I love cricket. But where has Warne ever exhibited the kind of behaviour that could even align him with this? In cricket I mean. In life he is more fallible than the rest.

And again, I have no problem with people saying it was something possible. But to assume he did it and swipe off the fact that it's been proved he didn't, or that at the time it was unprovable, just because you think him suspicious? It's going one yard too many.

I'll give you an example and I don't wish to shift the spotlight, but just use Warne's rival as an illuminating fact:

People say the laws need to change or that Murali should be tested in-match because he has a chance of chucking now without the risk of being called. Now, not only can you not prove that he is chucking anyway, but you are saying something out of line with his character as a cricketer: that he would mislead or that he would cheat. Based on what? That the rules are lax enough to give him that window? Therefore it's like someone saying: Murali is a chucker, I can't prove it but I know he does it in a match because the possibility is there.

 

[silentstriker]

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. Obviously, Warne is a big reason for why I love cricket. But where has Warne ever exhibited the kind of behaviour that could even align him with this?

Err, what behavior did Marion Jones exhibit in track that would align her with it?

 

[Top_Cat]

So O.J. Simpson, who ultimately wasnt convicted of murder because of lack of evidence, didnt deserve the stigma he had after that?

There was no lack of evidence for OJ. His attorney worked the case by attempting to discredit every witness and did it very successfully which then produced doubt regarding the application of physical evidence. Apples and oranges.

Whether Warnie is a drug cheat, who knows? What I did and do wonder is this; those who purport that his hubris and vanity were to blame for his taking of the diuretic for weight loss, could the same logic not be applied to explain a motive for taking a substance to fix his injured shoulder in time for the World Cup and in Warne possibly assuming he wouldn't get caught? He would have known that players are routinely drug tested and I don't buy that he wouldn't have known via player education it was a risk taking a diuretic so to go ahead and take that risk is surely pretty arrogant? Could the dieuretics have been used to mask recreational drugs?

Either way, there's no evidence that he took more than dieuretics but that he took it purey to lose weight like his Mum seems a bit thin.

 

[Ikki]

Err, what behavior did Marion Jones exhibit in track that would align her with it?

Err, you're the ones saying Warne's character is dubious hence the probability he did it is increased.

Getting tiresome to argue with you to be honest. And I've heard it all before. You also saw what he said in the interview regarding being proven he hadn't taken anything since his samples were identical all the way through his career. Unless you can disprove that, you have no leg to stand on. Say what you want, it's meaningless.

 

[Sanz]

Having taken it upon himself to tell ACB, without having even waited for the B samples, after the ASDA told him he tested positively shows his intentions weren't dishonest because they wouldn't have said anything unless they did.

Not again. So Warne went on his own to the ACB to tell about the +ve test absolves him of the illegal act. Same logic on the match fixing case as well, oh he went on his own and told the ACB about the money he took, so he was not involved. Not to forget both the claims are untrue. They didn't go on their own and confessed to it, ACB knew about it before they told of their wrong doings.

Let's face it, the guy is a great spinner, but he is also a drug cheat and a match fixer. It is just unfortunate that some people cant get rid of their biases and continue to defend the players involved.

 

[Top_Cat]

Let's face it, the guy is a greatest spinner, but he is also a drug cheat and a match fixer. It is just unfortunate that some people cant get rid of their biases and continue to defend the players involved.

Without wishing to defend Warne (sort of like defending the indefensible, really), the issue is hardly so cut and dried.

 

[subshakerz]

Not again. So Warne went on his own to the ACB to tell about the +ve test absolves him of the illegal act. Same logic on the match fixing case as well, oh he went on his own and told the ACB about the money he took, so he was not involved. Not to forget both the claims are untrue. They didn't go on their own and confessed to it, ACB knew about it before they told of their wrong doings.

Let's face it, the guy is a great spinner, but he is also a drug cheat and a match fixer. It is just unfortunate that some people cant get rid of their biases and continue to defend the players involved.

I wont go as far to say he is a drug cheat or a a match fixer, but he definitely did get a lot of leverage for his misdeeds and his cases were totally mishandled by the ACB to the point of letting him off the hook without any fair reprecussions. That's why he has a bit of a stigma is my eyes.

Was he a match-fixer? Cant say, he only gave pitch info, but the way the whole affair was hushed up for years is slightly suspicious. He got off only with a minor fine, a complete farce if you ask me.

Was he a drug cheat? Cant say, but again the board rushed the entire affair and completely accepted his viewpoint despite describing it as vague and inconsistent. The whole injury aspect was never even touched upon or investigated. He got off with a one-year ban, when in reality it should have been two years as there was no mitigating circumstances for a reduced ban.

He was no doubt a great bowler, but I laugh when I hear people describe him as a great sportsman. His misdeeds get downplayed to the point they are attributed to his larrikin character. I'm sure most of the people who defend him would never do so if he wasnt the bowler he is.

 

[Burgey]

Not again. So Warne went on his own to the ACB to tell about the +ve test absolves him of the illegal act. Same logic on the match fixing case as well, oh he went on his own and told the ACB about the money he took, so he was not involved. Not to forget both the claims are untrue. They didn't go on their own and confessed to it, ACB knew about it before they told of their wrong doings.

Let's face it, the guy is a great spinner, but he is also a drug cheat and a match fixer. It is just unfortunate that some people cant get rid of their biases and continue to defend the players involved.

Sanz,
I accept what you say about his diuretics and the suspiciously fast recovery from injury.

As with M Waugh though, I can't accept he's a match fixer. I can accept he had inappropriat econtact with bookies re providing info but I have not heard of anyone saying he fixed a match or matches.

 

[Ikki]

Not again. So Warne went on his own to the ACB to tell about the +ve test absolves him of the illegal act. Same logic on the match fixing case as well, oh he went on his own and told the ACB about the money he took, so he was not involved. Not to forget both the claims are untrue. They didn't go on their own and confessed to it, ACB knew about it before they told of their wrong doings.

Let's face it, the guy is a great spinner, but he is also a drug cheat and a match fixer. It is just unfortunate that some people cant get rid of their biases and continue to defend the players involved.

What? Where did match-fixing come into this? Providing info to a bookie is not match-fixing. Regardless of everything else, that's one thing there is no proof or circumstantial evidence about.

And yes, Warne went and told the ACB before the B samples were to be uncovered. There is no same logic here. You sound confused.

 

[Sanz]

What? Where did match-fixing come into this? Providing info to a bookie is not match-fixing. Regardless of everything else, that's one thing there is no proof or circumstantial evidence about.

To me it is. Providing information to the bookies aobut match related stuff is match fixing. We can talk about the degrees of match-fixing and all that but it is match fixing.

And yes, Warne went and told the ACB before the B samples were to be uncovered. There is no same logic here. You sound confused.

Who really cares about the B samples. Warne told this to ACB only after he failed the test,as if he had a choice. Did he say it to the ACB that he was taking the drug masking agent before he tested positive, NO.

If he had not informed ACB, the testing agency would have done so. I dont give Warne any benefit of that because after getting caught he told ACB that he was caught.

 

[Migara]

It is also used to lose weight?

No. it's not an indication.

Indications and Usage

Adjunctive therapy for edema associated with CHF, hepatic cirrhosis, renal function impairment, and corticosteroid and estrogen therapy; treatment of hypertension.
Unlabeled Uses

Prevention of formation and precurrence of calcium nephrolithiasis; therapy for nephrogenic diabetes insipidus.

Source

It's clearly not an indication. BTW why some one use HCT, which causes erectile impotence (remind you, this is one and only Warne), to lose weight when they have better diuretics with lesser side effects?

 

[Migara]

Ok, where's the fire? Warne doing anything different in 2003+ that he didn't do before?

It took half of the time for him to recover from major shoulder surgery. How 's that for a difference?

 

[Migara]

And we're talking about spin bowling here. What performance enhancing drug is going to help your technique? You certainly don't need more strength to bowl and endurance isn't a problem - Warne was overweight for a lot of his career.

are you living on Mars? Endurance is the key factor. spinners bowl more balls than pacemen, so the repetitive stress is much more in spinners. That endurance comes through physical training or by a shortcut method of using steroids.

 

[Ikki]

To me it is. Providing information to the bookies aobut match related stuff is match fixing. We can talk about the degrees of match-fixing and all that but it is match fixing.

Er, no. Not even close. You cannot fix a match (outcome of a result) by telling someone the pitch conditions.

Who really cares about the B samples. Warne told this to ACB only after he failed the test,as if he had a choice. Did he say it to the ACB that he was taking the drug masking agent before he tested positive, NO.

If he had not informed ACB, the testing agency would have done so. I dont give Warne any benefit of that because after getting caught he told ACB that he was caught.

Because he didn't have to tell. He could have waited to see if his B samples conflicted with the A samples and if it didn't then it would have come out anyway. He didn't take that opportunity whereas someone who was really trying to deceive would have.

 

[Ikki]

No. it's not an indication.

Warne had lost 12 kgs that year. His efforts were on looking good.

Source

It's clearly not an indication. BTW why some one use HCT, which causes erectile impotence (remind you, this is one and only Warne), to lose weight when they have better diuretics with lesser side effects?

Considering he only took two tablets, it's more than likely he was using it to drain himself to look thinner.

are you living on Mars? Endurance is the key factor. spinners bowl more balls than pacemen, so the repetitive stress is much more in spinners. That endurance comes through physical training or by a shortcut method of using steroids.

No, I live on Earth. Warne needed drugs to bowl the same amount as he did before...hmm. And we were talking about a 33 year old spinner.

It took half of the time for him to recover from major shoulder surgery. How 's that for a difference?

Er, we're talking about his form. The fact that if he had masked performance enhancing drugs, it would improve his game.

And all this is irrelevant. Later tests showed his samples to be all identical with his previous ones throughout his career.

Also, steroids aren't the kind of drug where you can take it and never touch it again - well, from what I've read. You grow a dependence/tolerance on them.

 

[Sanz]

Er, no. Not even close. You cannot fix a match (outcome of a result) by telling someone the pitch conditions.

Yeah Right !! Bookies were lining up to him to get the pitch information, information that was available openly. and Who says that anyway - The people who took the money and the board that swept it under the rug, Both have zero credibility on the issue and I dont trust them for a second on this issue.

IMO, If you are in contact with bookies and have accepted money from them, then you are a match fixer. I dont care if you are the greatest spinner or the greatest batsman, aussie or Indian.

 

[Ikki]

Yeah Right !! Bookies were lining up to him to get the pitch information, information that was available openly. and Who says that anyway - The people who took the money and the board that swept it under the rug, Both have zero credibility on the issue and I dont trust them for a second on this issue.

IMO, If you are in contact with bookies and have accepted money from them, then you are a match fixer. I dont care if you are the greatest spinner or the greatest batsman, aussie or Indian.

Bookies? More than one? You making up things as you go?

The ACB had told the ICC at the time. The ICC also didn't bring out. So you don't trust M Waugh, Warne, ACB and the ICC. Still has nothing to do with match-fixing.

How did you make the jump from providing info to match-fixing? How does that make him a match-fixer?

"Oh, you sledge, therefore you're a match-fixer in my eyes."

 

[Migara]

Warne had lost 12 kgs that year. His efforts were on looking good.

But still losing weight is not an indication for HCT. Look at British National Formulary or Australian Hospital Formulary for the indications of HCT.

Considering he only took two tablets, it's more than likely he was using it to drain himself to look thinner.

Two tablets means 50mg. It will let loose about 2 liters of fluid. 2kg out of a 70+ kg man. Looking thinner? What a comical weight reduction! (diuretic dose is 50mg two times daily so that means he was not taking it for the diuretic action. He was using it to cheat)

No, I live on Earth. Warne needed drugs to bowl the same amount as he did before...hmm. And we were talking about a 33 year old spinner.

I am also talking about a 33 year old spinner named Murali, who took 10 months to recover from the same shulder surgery that Warne undergone (who have bowled similar number of balls to Warne by that time).

Remeber that cricketers can only go up to late thirties maximum, so the additional time that ther get from using steroids is used to get back on form. For a 33 year old six months is a big time in their careers.

Er, we're talking about his form. The fact that if he had masked performance enhancing drugs, it would improve his game.

He was getting in to form using that extra time.

And all this is irrelevant. Later tests showed his samples to be all identical with his previous ones throughout his career.

HCT has a half life of 8 hours. By 40 hours only 0.1% of the drug will remain in the body. So the tests will become negative. No big deal about it.

Also, steroids aren't the kind of drug where you can take it and never touch it again - well, from what I've read. You grow a dependence/tolerance on them.

Bull****. Stroids do not cause dependance. They cause adrenal suppression, bat that is only glucocorticoids like prednisolone and fludrocortisone. Anabolic stroids like stanonozol, dihydrotestosterone do not cause adrenal suppression. Prednisolone needs tapering off of the dose which is not equal to dependence. Anabolic steroids and mineralocorticoids do not need tapering off. Your argument is totally wrong.