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*Official* English Football Season 2007-08

Tom Halsey

International Coach
Beyond that, my take on the matter has shifted over the years. For decades, I held the managers responsible for our failings - Ramsey withdrawing Charlton in 1970, Revie obscenely wasting the talent at his disposal in the mid1970's, Greenwood making an absolute pigs ear of the qualifiers for 1982 and then not using Hoddle even though Brooking was injured, Robson twice using the finals to find a new formation, Taylor being embarassingly our of his depth, etc, etc. Hoddle was the one guy I thought was genuinely unlucky, with Campbell's criminally disallowed goal and Beckham's stupidity reducing us to 10 men. Nowadays, when you look at the reduced fixture list, the much more settled first XI (as opposed to the cast of 100's in the friendlies), the support they have, the experience in the Champions League - I tend to hold the players 90% responsible. The number of times that the big names have basically done nothing can only lead me to conclude that they just don't care enough, whatever noises they might make to the contrary. I do think that SGE lacked the balls to stand up to the biggest names, and obviously SM is almost Tayloresque in terms of being out of his depth, but most of the sides picked have been reasonable and all too often the players just don't show up.
Thing is, I agree with almost all of this that I can remember - I don't remember much before Euro 96. I don't think the players care - hence why I don't care about the national side either and am borderline hoping we go out on Wednesday so we don't have what we usually have hype-wise next summer - but I tend to put this down to management (to some extent).

SGE was a pretty competent manager in qualifiation, that is true, but against big teams and in big games he was both a bottler and tactically inept, which is why, after 6 years or however long it was, it was definitely time for someone new - just not McClaren.

I don't think he did a lot wrong until Portugal in 2004, but the ridiculous nature of his tactics in that game turned me against him, and he didn't do a lot to convince me otherwise after that.
 

Craig

World Traveller
Went absurdly defensive and just invited pressure onto us - prior to that, we had been dominating them, with Rooney off.

The ridiculous overhype the media gave it every big tournament was never realistic - as soon as it started going wrong, which was inevitable, Sven invariably sat back and let it happen. Admittedly in 02 we simply went out to a better side which is fair enough, but in 04 and 06 we didn't (even if it did take the lottery of penalties to put us out, plus a **** decision in 04).

Sven is arguably a good club manager - though aside from Lazio IIRC his record isn't that special (though I could be wrong) - and I don't think City will finish that high up the league this season btw - but he wasn't a good international manager IMO, even if McLaren is currently making him look like God.

Our players play very well for their club sides, and don't for the national side - simple as, IMO.
He did the Portugese League (won the league the following year) and Cup double with Benfica in the early 80's and won it again for them in 1991 and a European Cup final. Has Coppa Italia's with both Roma and Sampdoria. Won a UEFA Cup with IFK Göteborg plus the league and cup stuff with them as well. Had sucess in the Swedish lower divisions as well.

And a big thank you to wikipedia to were I ripped this information from :p
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
He did the Portugese League (won the league the following year) and Cup double with Benfica in the early 80's and won it again for them in 1991 and a European Cup final. Has Coppa Italia's with both Roma and Sampdoria. Won a UEFA Cup with IFK Göteborg plus the league and cup stuff with them as well. Had sucess in the Swedish lower divisions as well.

And a big thank you to wikipedia to were I ripped this information from :p
Ah fair dos, hard to argue with that record tbf.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
I should have added that, with no disrespect to the previous posters, all this talk of christmas tree formations frightens the life out of me given that this is a cannot-afford-to-lose situation. I'm not especially convinced the players will enjoy 4-5-1, although I think it's what he'll do. Gotta love England managers' occasional forays into unfamiliar new formations in crucial games.
lol, but TBH i don't think even though the game is so crucial i don't think playing the christmas tree isn't that bad given that if some players have played 4-3-3 formations for their club side i don't think playing 4-3-2-1 will be too difficult for them. Especially given that i don't want to see 4-5-1 with Stevie G & Lamps coming through the middle together again. As said i can live with 4-4-1-1 or 4-3-2-1



As the other guys said, our players just aren't all that special. The absurd myth of the golden generation has been well & truly shown up at the last couple of tournaments.
The reason it has been shown up is because of bad management IMO. I have looked back at the England team that went the semi-finals in Italia 90 & Euro 96 & the best England XI currently except for a few positions has more talented players than those sides i think. They have played better because they had good managers in Sir Bobby Robson & Terry Vernables who made the team play as a unit.

England currently:

James/Carson/Green
Richards
Cole
Terry
Ferdinand
Beckham
Cole
Hargreaves
Gerrard
Rooney
Owen

England XI Euro 96:

Seaman
G Neville
Pearce
Adams
Southgate
Ince
Gascoigne
McManaman
Anderton
Sheringham
Shearer

England XI Italy 90:

Shilton
G Steven
Pearce
Adams
Walker
T Steven
Platt
Robson
Gascoigne
Waddle
Lineker

Not sure if these where the exact starting line-ups for any games with the 96 & 90 sides but i'm selecting them based on video's my popps has that i've seen. Currently England have better bench strenght in defense & mid-field i remember watching the semi-final of Euro 96 & Vernables didn't make any subs which shows how little faith he had in the back-ups.

Both the 90 & 96 sides had a better keepers no debates, defensively i think i would take Terry/Ferdinand or the Campbell/Ferdinand combination of recent times over those of 90 or 96, full-backs about even also. The mid-field well based on video i'd say Gascoigne, Platt & Ince were superb central mid-fielders probably better than the recent lot of Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes but i'll leave that debate for the older folks while wingers like Waddle & my boy McManaman compared to Becks & Joe Cole well not sure here.

Going foward though nothing beats Rooney & Owen. In 96 Shearer/Sheringham were brilliant no doubt but they are not as skillfull as our current generation striker partnership, while in 1990 it seems it was a similar case to Owen after Euro 2000 & prior to Euro 2004 where England had only 1 quality striker.
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Beardsley/Lineker, infinitely better then Shearer/Sheringham and Rooney/Owen, imho.

I think WPDavid is saying those sides weren't that much cop either, and I'd agree tbh. '96 particularly wildly over-rated. Mcmanaman who never chose to run, a Gazza who was too fat to run, Anderton who was too crocked to run and Gareth ****ing Southgate, do not make a great side, imho.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
The reason it has been shown up is because of bad management IMO. I have looked back at the England team that went the semi-finals in Italia 90 & Euro 96 & the best England XI currently except for a few positions has more talented players than those sides i think. They have played better because they had good managers in Sir Bobby Robson & Terry Vernables who made the team play as a unit.

England currently:

James/Carson/Green
Richards
Cole
Terry
Ferdinand
Beckham
Cole
Hargreaves
Gerrard
Rooney
Owen


England XI Italy 90:

Shilton
G Steven
Pearce
Adams
Walker
T Steven
Platt
Robson
Gascoigne
Waddle
Lineker

Not sure if these where the exact starting line-ups for any games with the 96 & 90 sides but i'm selecting them based on video's my popps has that i've seen. Currently England have better bench strenght in defense & mid-field

Both the 90 & 96 sides had a better keepers no debates, defensively i think i would take Terry/Ferdinand or the Campbell/Ferdinand combination of recent times over those of 90 or 96, full-backs about even also. The mid-field well based on video i'd say Gascoigne, Platt & Ince were superb central mid-fielders probably better than the recent lot of Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes but i'll leave that debate for the older folks while wingers like Waddle & my boy McManaman compared to Becks & Joe Cole well not sure here.

Going foward though nothing beats Rooney & Owen. In 96 Shearer/Sheringham were brilliant no doubt but they are not as skillfull as our current generation striker partnership, while in 1990 it seems it was a similar case to Owen after Euro 2000 & prior to Euro 2004 where England had only 1 quality striker.

I'll mostly leave this particular reply to 1990 vs the current lot, as others have addressed 1996. Only pausing to say that 1996 amounted to seeing off the Scots, one excellent performance against the Dutch, the luck of the gods against the Spanish, and failing to beat a German side whose quality depends on which of Matteh & myself you choose to believe - i.e. it's more than a bit over-rated imo.

The 1990 side which Robson eventually found was Shilton, Parker, Butcher, Walker, Wright, Pearce, Waddle, Gascoigne, Platt, Lineker & Beardsley. Barnes played in several games, but not well and was replaced by the semifinal (I think!). Robson was injured very early on in the tournament. Gary Stevens & Trevor Steven didn't feature too often. The immediate problem in comparing that to the current side is the different formation - 3 centre backs, two wingbacks, 3 midfielders & two forwards. However, I'll have a stab at it. As you say, Shilton is better than any of the current crop, even if he was 40 by then. Pearce is criminally under-rated by many, and arguably our best left back since Ray Wilson. Parker vs Richards is probably too close to call. Our 3 centre backs in 1990 were actually very good indeed. Butcher, don't forget, played in 3 WCs without being shown up by anyone apart from Maradonna's 2nd in 1986, Walker was a quite superb defender, even if he tended to get a nose bleed if he strayed into the opponents half, and Wright was a bit like Ferdinand in that he was usually good, could pass a ball, but occasionally ****ed up. I'd take most of them in preference to our current back four, tbh. Gascoigne was several classes above anyone we have nowadays as a midfielder. Obviously Gerrard & Lampard score more goals, but their distribution & link play isn't within touching distance of what Gazza did at his peak. Or Waddle, who wasn't really playing as a winger in that lineup. Platt was a much less heralded version of SG & FL, as he played for Villa intead of one of the bigger sides, but he did the same as them and scored quite crucial goals in that tournament. tbf Platt vs either of the terrible twins is too close to all if either of the current guys is in form. It's also hard to make a call on the holding midfielder, as we didn't have one in 1990 due to playing 5-3-2. Up front, for all the hype, Owen + Rooney hasn't come to much yet. People forget how good Lineker was, and I certainly couldn't regard Own as his superior. Both were/are great finishers in pressure situations, but Lineker maybe gets the edge because he could regulaarly score with his head as well as feet. Rooney vs Beardsley is an intersting one. Rooney should go on to be much the better player, but Beardsley did play with Lineker far better than Rooney has with Owen to date. And I suspect that people forget how good Beardsley was in the second half of the 1980's.

OK, thanks for sticking with me so far. The point I'm eventually coming to is whether England really have more talented players nowadays, and I'm just not convinced that they do. They certainly have more hyped players, and they also have players that we see more of due to every single game being televised, but a lot of them are, imo, vastly over-rated. If I was going to pick a composite 4-4-2 lineup, it might look like - Shilton, Parker, Pearce, Walker, Wright or Ferdinand, Gascoigne, Waddle, Gerrard, Robson, Lineker and Rooney. Something like that, anyway. And even then I've cheated by bringing Robson back from injury to try and give the midfield some sort of balance. If he was injured, I'd revert to 5-3-2 and bring in Butcher. My take on the matter remains that, by the mid1980's, Robson had a superb bunch of players - imo stronger than the current lot. Some played well for him. Others, such as Barnes, often did not. Interestingly, Barnes' (and Hoddle's before him) poor performances were generally blamed on the player himself, whereas the current generation under-perform, the manager takes the cop. I think that's actually the reverse of the truth, but there you go. And maligned as he was, Barnes was still 100% better on the left than virtually anyone we've seen since. Anyway, I digress.

The other thing is about the relative success in 1990 being down to Robson (the manager). Sure he had his strengths, but the side that eventually excelled in that tournament was arrived at as much by luck as judgement. And the same happened in 1986. The saying at the time was "the manager's indecision is final", and there was much talk about the players coming up with the 5-3-2 formation that improved our performances no end.
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
WPDavid said:
"The other thing is about the relative success in 1990 being down to Robson (the manager). Sure he had his strengths, but the side that eventually excelled in that tournament was arrived at as much by luck as judgement. And the same happened in 1986. The saying at the time was "the manager's indecision is final", and there was much talk about the players coming up with the 5-3-2 formation that improved our performances no end."
Disagree with most of that. Myths created by journos that were slating Bobby beforehand, and had to come up with an excuse for his success.

I didn't think 5 at the back worked, we scored the vast majority of our goals in the tournament, when we'd reverted back to a four, including breaking a deadlock, and coming from behind twice.

Terry Butcher says that the players making the decisions was a fallacy. Other players keep on hinting otherwise. Interestingly enough most of them have been utter failures in managerial positions, Bobby won championships and cups in three other countries subsequently. I know who I believe.
 
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wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Disagree with most of that. Myths created by journos that were slating Bobby beforehand, and had to come up with an excuse for his success.

I didn't think 5 at the back worked, we scored the vast majority of our goals in the tournament, when we'd reverted back to a four, including breaking a deadlock, and coming from behind twice.
Interesting stats, albeit slightly misleading. Platt's deadlock-breaking goal owed nothing to the formation, being that spectacular over-the-shoulder volley from Gazza's free kick in the centre circle. But fair point about the Cameroon & Germany games though. Actually I'd forgotten that Trevor Steven replaced Butcher after 70 minutes when we were behind in each of those games. Was that a pre-planned strategy given Butcher's age by then? Either way, we did play a lot of the tournament in a formation that wasn't seen before the 2nd group game, which is a strange way to go about things.

Terry Butcher says that the players making the decisions was a fallacy. Other players keep on hinting otherwise. Interestingly enough most of them have been utter failures in managerial positions, Bobby won championships and cups in three other countries subsequently. I know who I believe.
Don't get me wrong, I rate the guy. Well, better than most of our managers, anyway. I was mainly disputing the idea that our performances in 1990 were more down to him than the quality of players at his disposal. And, in both of his WC's, there's no avoiding the fact that our eventual lineup seemed more a matter of luck than initial judgement. Still, I suppose some would say the same about Hurst & Peters in 1966, so who knows what all of that proves.

The ironic thing about Robson was that he left the job when he was perhaps best qualified to do it. I would certainly have preferred another four years of him than what we got from Taylor.
 
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grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yes, but it should be remembered neither Beardsley nor Lineker were definites to even be in the squad in '86. Many favoured the likes of Clough or Dixon to go with Hateley, gawd help us:eek:

Anyway, not sure where this convos taking us in this thread.

I'll just say:

C'MON ENGLAND


Despite the players being ridiculously overpayed and over-rated, and the manager being utterly out of his depth
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Yes, but it should be remembered neither Beardsley nor Lineker were definites to even be in the squad in '86. Many favoured the likes of Clough or Dixon to go with Hateley, gawd help us:eek:

Anyway, not sure where this convos taking us in this thread.

I'll just say:

C'MON ENGLAND


Despite the players being ridiculously overpayed and over-rated, and the manager being utterly out of his depth
Probably nowhere, just idling the time away. One of these days I'll have to bore you with my memories of Exeter's run to the quarter finals of the 1981 FA Cup, when I was at uni there. There was indeed only one Tony Kellow. Perhaps another time.
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Probably nowhere, just idling the time away. One of these days I'll have to bore you with my memories of Exeter's run to the quarter finals of the 1981 FA Cup, when I was at uni there. There was indeed only one Tony Kellow. Perhaps another time.

Ahh, those 'twere the days. Kellow, 'ello.

I tried to get Goughy to name his child "kellow", was almost my crowning crickweb moment, tbh:cool:

I was at the Leicester match, missed Newcastle though, my dad wouldn't let me go. ****8-)
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Ahh, those 'twere the days. Kellow, 'ello.

I tried to get Goughy to name his child "kellow", was almost my crowning crickweb moment, tbh:cool:

I was at the Leicester match, missed Newcastle though, my dad wouldn't let me go. ****8-)

Now you've started me ...

I was at the Leicester game too, although I'm struggling to remember the score. 3 - 1 maybe? I was at the 4 - 0 win against Newcastle and then watched the highlights on the Beeb later. I remember Davies or Motson getting very excited about Hatch, as if he was the answer to Engalnd's midfield problems at the time. I also travelled up to White Hart Lane for the quarter final. Filthy weather, and shocking pitch, but great fun. Poor old Lennie Bond dropped the ball for Spurs' first after we'd pretty much matched them until then. The oddest thing was Warren Mitchell doing some sort of pre-match routine as, in reality, he was a Spurs man not a Hammer, which I hadn't realised previously. Oh, and I was also at the 1st round game against Leatherhead, who included a very overweight Chris Kelly, who you might remember from the mid70's. I can't remember the 2nd & 3rd rounds off hand.
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Now you've started me ...

I was at the Leicester game too, although I'm struggling to remember the score. 3 - 1 maybe? I was at the 4 - 0 win against Newcastle and then watched the highlights on the Beeb later. I remember Davies or Motson getting very excited about Hatch, as if he was the answer to Engalnd's midfield problems at the time. I also travelled up to White Hart Lane for the quarter final. Filthy weather, and shocking pitch, but great fun. Poor old Lennie Bond dropped the ball for Spurs' first after we'd pretty much matched them until then. The oddest thing was Warren Mitchell doing some sort of pre-match routine as, in reality, he was a Spurs man not a Hammer, which I hadn't realised previously. Oh, and I was also at the 1st round game against Leatherhead, who included a very overweight Chris Kelly, who you might remember from the mid70's. I can't remember the 2nd & 3rd rounds off hand.
'Twas 3-1, when TK hit the pen to go 2-1 up, the bloke beside me said before he struck it, "thats the winner". was clearly heard on the TV microphones. I just remember being horrified for a fraction of a second by the potential jinx.

We beat Maidstone and Gillingham I think, in the other rounds. Hatch was loved by my dad. actually he had a left foot, he may have been the answer to Englands problems ATM
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Anyway, Ceefax reckon that Beckham's been dropped for tonight & SWP will play as part of a 5 man midfield. Looks like Crouch has some running about to do. Let's hope he's a patient man, as you can't see too many decent crosses coming his way.
 

Craig

World Traveller
England won't make it, going for a Croatia victory for mine. If England get up I'll let you choose my avatar.
 

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