Check Murali's action in a Test - Warne

[Richard]

Exactly what I was saying...maybe one day this won't be the case.

Just out of interest...how did they come to the conclusion that everyone was above the limit in the Champions Trophy apart from Sarwan again? I've asked this before but I forgot the answer...if the above holds wouldn't it be impossible without getting all of them into the clinic?

You can tell that everyone's not 0 degrees, without knowing (often to like 0.05 of a degree or something when tested properly) exactly what they are. You can use even standard slow-mo footage to spot a change in angle of the elbow - with the 1000fps stuff, and strategically placed cameras and all sorts of things besides, I imagine you can get pretty close - probably to a resolution of about five degrees.

In any case, I imagine the project was about far more than purely that Champions Trophy 2004 research.

Having thought the matter through properly, I then realised how utterly absurd was the notion that most bowlers never straightened their arms by so much as one degree. Even five degrees is bascially nothing - you'll never, ever notice that with the naked-eye. It's incredible that it took until 2004 for this to be recognised really.

 

[archie mac]

Anyway I mentioned this at cricket practice last night, and they all 40+ players thought he threw the ball

 

[Richard]

There was a time, too, when every man on Earth (or near enough) believed it was natural to rape women too.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

There was a time, too, when every man on Earth (or near enough) believed it was natural to rape women too.

It is, but the law was changed to make the action illegal. A sort of reverse of changing the laws to make Murali's action legal.

 

[Richard]

The laws aren't what matter - what matters is that things which were once thought to be right by the majority in time come to be realised as being wrong - terribly so in some cases.

 

[Son Of Coco]

There was a time, too, when every man on Earth (or near enough) believed it was natural to rape women too.

Was this tested under laboratory conditions?

 

[Son Of Coco]

You can tell that everyone's not 0 degrees, without knowing (often to like 0.05 of a degree or something when tested properly) exactly what they are. You can use even standard slow-mo footage to spot a change in angle of the elbow - with the 1000fps stuff, and strategically placed cameras and all sorts of things besides, I imagine you can get pretty close - probably to a resolution of about five degrees.

In any case, I imagine the project was about far more than purely that Champions Trophy 2004 research.

Having thought the matter through properly, I then realised how utterly absurd was the notion that most bowlers never straightened their arms by so much as one degree. Even five degrees is bascially nothing - you'll never, ever notice that with the naked-eye. It's incredible that it took until 2004 for this to be recognised really.

Given the potential for optical illusions I'm not sure that's 100% the case...from what I can see once you remove the weight from the hand it'll naturally bend forwards a little, but then that would be after the ball has been released therefore it's already been delivered. I'm still not sure what they defined comes under the original definition of throwing...but I do remember having this conversation with someone before and they explained it pretty well so I don't think there's a need to do it again.

 

[pasag]

Nothing wrong with Warne's comments per se but as others have said, the timing is awful. And it's not like a reporter asked him the question and he answered it truthfully, then I'd have no issue and would say it would be quite a good answer, but as has been said, show some tact. Was a tad disappointed with Muarli's comments as well, he has the right to be angry but I always though of him as a lot better than that, might be my very high image of him more than anything. Good to see they made up though, especially before anything escalated.

 

[shortpitched713]

Exactly what I was saying...maybe one day this won't be the case.

Just out of interest...how did they come to the conclusion that everyone was above the limit in the Champions Trophy apart from Sarwan again? I've asked this before but I forgot the answer...if the above holds wouldn't it be impossible without getting all of them into the clinic?

There was no limit back then. If you straightened your elbow, at all, you were throwing according to the old rules. And I dare say you don't need fancy-shmancy biomechanical equipment to tell if someone is straightening their arm at all.

 

[Son Of Coco]

There was no limit back then. If you straightened your elbow, at all, you were throwing according to the old rules. And I dare say you don't need fancy-shmancy biomechanical equipment to tell if someone is straightening their arm at all.

Wouldn't you need it to tell if they weren't though?

 

[Richard]

Was this tested under laboratory conditions?

I hope not.

 

[Richard]

Wouldn't you need it to tell if they weren't though?

This is the part that's always puzzled me. Of course you would. There's no way you can tell that a bowler is not straightening his elbow at all without the sensors-on-10-points-on-the-arm or whatever the method they use is, can't remember exactly.

I always found it incredibly odd that they said Sarwan was the only bowler who didn't flex his elbow at all, because if this is true he had to have had the proper testing, you could have 1,000,000fps and 50 different angles all synchronised exactly and you'd still never be able to tell there was zero straightening.

I find it exceedingly odd, too, that Sarwan just happened to be able to do something that no-one else can. I'm amazed, having actually thought about the matter, that anyone can bowl with an elbow that doesn't change sinuosity without a brace on to force it to stay at the same angle.

And actually, I've just checked - Sarwan did not bowl, at all, in the Champions Trophy, so it would've had to have been some sort of lab-testing, or maybe in the nets with a reduced resolution or something.

 

[Top_Cat]

This is the part that's always puzzled me. Of course you would. There's no way you can tell that a bowler is not straightening his elbow at all without the sensors-on-10-points-on-the-arm or whatever the method they use is, can't remember exactly.

I always found it incredibly odd that they said Sarwan was the only bowler who didn't flex his elbow at all, because if this is true he had to have had the proper testing, you could have 1,000,000fps and 50 different angles all synchronised exactly and you'd still never be able to tell there was zero straightening.

I find it exceedingly odd, too, that Sarwan just happened to be able to do something that no-one else can. I'm amazed, having actually thought about the matter, that anyone can bowl with an elbow that doesn't change sinuosity without a brace on to force it to stay at the same angle.

And actually, I've just checked - Sarwan did not bowl, at all, in the Champions Trophy, so it would've had to have been some sort of lab-testing, or maybe in the nets with a reduced resolution or something.

I reckon it's a measurement made with significant error attached and was reported wrongly. Unless Sarwan has titanium bones and carbon-fibre ligaments, there ain't no way he could bowl with no flexion at all. I call shenanigans on that claim.

 

[Son Of Coco]

I reckon it's a measurement made with significant error attached and was reported wrongly. Unless Sarwan has titanium bones and carbon-fibre ligaments, there ain't no way he could bowl with no flexion at all. I call shenanigans on that claim.

Yeah, it made me a little suspicious too...it seemed to be a bit of a 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' approach from the ICC at the time.

 

[shortpitched713]

Wouldn't you need it to tell if they weren't though?

I suppose Sarwan didn't show any indication of straightening using whatever technique they did to detect such a thing. I suppose he still could be straightening his arm .0017 degrees or something, but the fact that they could tell, even without the equipment that is now in use, that every other bowler straightened really highlighted the ludicrousness of the old setup, tbh.

 

[BoyBrumby]

And actually, I've just checked - Sarwan did not bowl, at all, in the Champions Trophy, so it would've had to have been some sort of lab-testing, or maybe in the nets with a reduced resolution or something.

Fair point actually, but the original cricinfo article seems to suggest that he was somehow tested,

"Research was also undertaken during the ICC Champions Trophy in England, where it was found that 13 of the 23 bowlers filmed straightened their arms more than the current permissible levels. Ramnaresh Sarwan, he of the fairly innocuous legspin, was the only man observed who didn't straighten his arm at all."

Clearly someone is being economical with the actualité.

 

[Richard]

That was my thought, and it seems Corey and SOC are of a similar mind.

 

[Son Of Coco]

That was my thought, and it seems Corey and SOC are of a similar mind.

Yeah, it actually adds a little to the confusion rather than really solving anything IMO. It seems to work ok if you don't have any questions about any of it.

 

[shortpitched713]

Clearly someone is being economical with the actualité.

Can't you just speak English? Thats the second time today that I've had to look up a word from one of your posts, which is normally a good thing, but one of them wasn't even correct.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Can't you just speak English? Thats the second time today that I've had to look up a word from one of your posts, which is normally a good thing, but one of them wasn't even correct.

Like most folk...you obviously don't appreciate the value of the education being handed out to you here today