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***Official*** New Zealand in South Africa
- Thread starter James
- Start date
I wish.
Athlai
Not Terrible
Mbangwa, he's gun.
Flem274*
123/5
So if McCullum only scores 20-30 in his natural position, how is he suppossed to do better than opening?
Papps and Cumming have been awful yes. Cumming showed against Sri Lanka he can do better and Papps' problem is his technique is made for combating the average NZ seamer on the average NZ wicket. This technique can be changed. For the meanwhile, I'd prefer Vincent, How and Sinclair to be the opening options. Our best middle order players should never, ever, be wasted opening.
As for you not caring what players real positions are, news flash, no one gives a **** what one random fan thinks. People who know their cricket know that there are some positions beyond some players capability. McCullum can't ****ing open, Fleming, bar one stellar season, can't either. That is a cold hard fact.
As for me not thinking outside the square, I'm usually the one banging on about young players etc etc.
Now, does anyone else think the people who are calling Bond pea hearted and pathetic a full of ****? Generally people that bad don't mow through world class batting line ups.
gettingbetter
State Vice-Captain
Sorry, didn't know where the next game was, even so, I get the feeling that Harris will become a Giles-like character - always selected in the team, but will rarely bowl.
I've heard the argument that a team always needs a spinner, but when they are under used like Giles has been, I view it as a waste.
(Plus, its Pollock...come on)
gettingbetter
State Vice-Captain
Dinesh goes alright.
Matt52
U19 Vice-Captain
Vincent and Sinclair are both middle order players so thats kinda strange. I dont agree with McCullum opening but Im not against a middle order player having a go at opening.. Just choose our best middle order and whichever middle order players are left could be weighed up against the best openers we have,,,..
As for your second comment there. Yeah , you can work things out to a point but to know for sure you must be a prophet. Glenn Turner thought Fulton would be a good opener but that didnt work out too well... Who would have thought Sehwag would have a good career as an opener with his way of playing.. A lot of the time it just comes down to luck, with a dropped catch giving you a chance to get a good score and some confidence in the position...
JBH001
International Regular
I dont know if anyone can reasonbly think that. Not just because of his bowling but also because of the way he has come back from injury time and time again.
However, his constant predeliction for breaking down does create significant problems.
I honestly dont know anymore if it is worth picking him again for test matches and tours.
Simply more trouble than he may be worth.
Flem274*
123/5
TBF he survived all last season. The injury rate has decreased considerably. Thank god.
Flem274*
123/5
True, but the top order is beyond McCullum when he can't stay in for long in ODI's and Fleming is our best batsman bar Vettori ATM so I wouldn't risk him opening when we can get the best out of him in the middle order.
Yeah Vincent and Sinclair are middle order players so that makes my argument kinda hypocritical but they'll do a damn sight better than McCullum and Fleming opening.
Also, I've calmed down a bit and I reckon there's not much point sacking the openers now. You never know, they might get a score next test. I don't think we should sack them forever based on one test.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
The fact that the batting lineup failed to produce isn't so much of the concern for mine. Sometimes you just get a few good balls if the opposition bowl well and happen to fall to them in a match; it can happen to any team. The real concern though was how all the batsmen got out and what they did at the crease. Most of the batsmen looked completely out of their depth and not even close to being test standard; they'll struggle to ever score runs unless they improve remarkably.
Craig Cumming
I know you're trying to rectify the fact that you play around your front pad at times, but they call it "front foot" and "back foot" for a reason; not "left foot" and "right foot". Opening your stance up a little bit is one thing, but just moving your back foot forward in line with your front foot every ball is not the answer!
Michael Papps
*sigh* If you have a tummy ache, have a bex and a nice lie down for an hour and get the hell back out there. On a batting point though, like most others, if the ball is short, you have to get in line with it. If you aren't in line with it, you should either be cutting it or leaving it. It isn't going to hit the stumps, so if it isn't going to hit you, you shouldn't be defending/prodding at it.
Stephen Fleming
Perhaps a bit unlucky. Did get two starts and probably should have gone on, but looked fairly assured at the crease and got two good balls. You can be spared.
Scott Styris
So very frustrating. The most technically equipped player in the lineup bar Fleming, you looked perhaps the worst out there. A really dire shot in the second innings to get out which summed up the way you played in the whole game. I've been a fan of you for years but it seems that if the ball actually bounces above your hip these days, you're all at sea. I've actually suggested in the past that out of all the middle order converts, you'd have perhaps made a better fist of opening, but I take that back; your back foot movements seem to be getting worse by the game. And let's not forget your bowling - if you want to steam in and bowl at 130km/h, well that's actually very good for the team balance, but do it all the time, not just when it suits you, and tell the damn captain you're going to do it beforehand! You've been under-rated in your time but I think your time may be up.
Ross Taylor
On debut, so I'll be kind. In all fairness you could probably get a few big scores and raise some eyebrows on a flat pitch, but you're not really test class at this stage from what I've seen. Probably worth a run though ahead of some of these others.
Jacob Oram
Hamstring injury or not, get the bricks out of your shoes. You've always been the same and you look so vulnerable when you're out there. Just make some definite movements when you're batting to get in better positions, you really look like the most apathetic cricketer I've ever seen whether you're batting or bowling.
Brendon McCullum
Really, just not a good batsman. You create the illusion of having talent by playing a lot of shots; when you connect on a good ball, you look like Vivian Richards. It won't get you anywhere in the long run though, especially if you continue to only move your back foot backwards rather than across as well where it should actually go. Uncharacteristic drop too, but the game was pretty much gone by then as far as I'm concerned.
Daniel Vettori
Well, at least you can score a few, even if you look like you're going to get out every ball. Keep it up, I guess.
John Bracewell
Mathew Sinclair is the second best batsman you have available to you. Pick him or see more games like this. He's only barely test class but the rest of the lot simply aren't, at all. Styris is off his nut and the rest (Fleming aside) just aren't much chop.
Most of the batting woes can be put down to a few key points:
* Make more definite and positive foot movements
* Don't defend balls that won't hit the stumps
* Don't try to hit good balls for four
Although, really, if you could get every poor batsman in the world to do that, you'd be left with a world full of great batsmen. So perhaps these guys just aren't good enough.
Craig Cumming
I know you're trying to rectify the fact that you play around your front pad at times, but they call it "front foot" and "back foot" for a reason; not "left foot" and "right foot". Opening your stance up a little bit is one thing, but just moving your back foot forward in line with your front foot every ball is not the answer!
Michael Papps
*sigh* If you have a tummy ache, have a bex and a nice lie down for an hour and get the hell back out there. On a batting point though, like most others, if the ball is short, you have to get in line with it. If you aren't in line with it, you should either be cutting it or leaving it. It isn't going to hit the stumps, so if it isn't going to hit you, you shouldn't be defending/prodding at it.
Stephen Fleming
Perhaps a bit unlucky. Did get two starts and probably should have gone on, but looked fairly assured at the crease and got two good balls. You can be spared.
Scott Styris
So very frustrating. The most technically equipped player in the lineup bar Fleming, you looked perhaps the worst out there. A really dire shot in the second innings to get out which summed up the way you played in the whole game. I've been a fan of you for years but it seems that if the ball actually bounces above your hip these days, you're all at sea. I've actually suggested in the past that out of all the middle order converts, you'd have perhaps made a better fist of opening, but I take that back; your back foot movements seem to be getting worse by the game. And let's not forget your bowling - if you want to steam in and bowl at 130km/h, well that's actually very good for the team balance, but do it all the time, not just when it suits you, and tell the damn captain you're going to do it beforehand! You've been under-rated in your time but I think your time may be up.
Ross Taylor
On debut, so I'll be kind. In all fairness you could probably get a few big scores and raise some eyebrows on a flat pitch, but you're not really test class at this stage from what I've seen. Probably worth a run though ahead of some of these others.
Jacob Oram
Hamstring injury or not, get the bricks out of your shoes. You've always been the same and you look so vulnerable when you're out there. Just make some definite movements when you're batting to get in better positions, you really look like the most apathetic cricketer I've ever seen whether you're batting or bowling.
Brendon McCullum
Really, just not a good batsman. You create the illusion of having talent by playing a lot of shots; when you connect on a good ball, you look like Vivian Richards. It won't get you anywhere in the long run though, especially if you continue to only move your back foot backwards rather than across as well where it should actually go. Uncharacteristic drop too, but the game was pretty much gone by then as far as I'm concerned.
Daniel Vettori
Well, at least you can score a few, even if you look like you're going to get out every ball. Keep it up, I guess.
John Bracewell
Mathew Sinclair is the second best batsman you have available to you. Pick him or see more games like this. He's only barely test class but the rest of the lot simply aren't, at all. Styris is off his nut and the rest (Fleming aside) just aren't much chop.
Most of the batting woes can be put down to a few key points:
* Make more definite and positive foot movements
* Don't defend balls that won't hit the stumps
* Don't try to hit good balls for four
Although, really, if you could get every poor batsman in the world to do that, you'd be left with a world full of great batsmen. So perhaps these guys just aren't good enough.
Flem274*
123/5
Interesting insight there, thoough i reckon most of them are test class. We've just hit a major batting slump ATM. I'd like to see them rectify their techniques and do what you mentioned but it's not likely.
Get John Wright out there to help our batsmen with their game, even if its just some friendly encouragement. They need it.
Get John Wright out there to help our batsmen with their game, even if its just some friendly encouragement. They need it.
Chubb
International Regular
Good post from Prince, though maybe a bit harsh on Styris and Oram. I can't believe How has been called up ahead of Sinclair. It is just insane, NZ need to get rid of Bracewell right now and select the best XI players available, even if it means having Lou and Sinclair open. You know what other country doesn't pick its best XI for personal/ whacko reasons? Zimbabwe. Do we want NZ cricket to end up like Zimbabwe?
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
Yeah well...that sentiment isn't just based on one test is it? It's based on the performance of our openers over the last two seasons. It wouldn't be so bad if Cumming and Papps had actually got some runs under their belt in the warm-ups, but they didn't. Cumming made a solitary 60 and the rest have been failures.
This form, on Cumming's part, stretches back to the Sri Lanka series last year. The decent average he managed to secure in that series was really only due to the astonishing fact that he was caught out off no balls three times.
Papps poor form, at the international level, stretches back even further, to the last time we toured South Africa, when he was similarly exposed by Steyn and co against the swing and pace.
Therefore it's perfectly understandable to want this pair sacked. I certainly would...if we had anyone decent to replace them with.
As for the rest of the side its difficult to say. You really don't wanna drop Styris, but its been a long time since his last big score (against the West Indies in 2006).
Unless Oram's form improves rapidly, I could very easily see him being replaced with Ryder later this season (tall left handed batting all rounder for tall left handed batting all rounder). His bowling was fairly impotent in this match in conditions (especially in the first innings) which should have suited him. Although he showed signs of getting some touch with the bat in his 40.
Is it just me or did Fleming seem to somehow...not care that much about his wicket in this match? It'd be understandable I suppose. He's already been forced out of the captaincy spot and is retiring in 6 months, but it was still fairly odd to see him flailing away like he was...
wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
We now know that the decision to omit Pollock was purely a financial one, insofar as it allowed the game to last until Day 4. Can't blame the saffies for that.
silentstriker
The Wheel is Forever
So Shane Bond has played his customary one Test per year. June 2008 is the next time I suppose.
This is sort of what I'd hoped would happen, obviously with more success, but still. I hope he continues like this.
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Raghav
International Vice-Captain
I do not agree mate
NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
The thing is, I reckon Papps and Cumming ARE good enough to make it at test level (to average mid 30's at least) but they're batting like monkeys with a wooden spoon rather than professional cricketers with bats. They need to pick their deliveries better and stonewall a bit first up. It's like they say; the first half hour belongs to the bowlers with the new ball. I don't think either of them realise this and really do look at sea.
I think Styris and Oram are far too inconsistent for the Blackcaps. Orams bowling saves him, but Styris clearly suffers from a lack of playing long format cricket. He has the ability but not enough game time to be in form. He does well in ODI's because he plays so much of it. I think he simply needs to stay out in the middle and grind out a slow 20 before thinking about a big score. Get himself in. Oram needs to do similar.
Fleming is clearly our best batsman and managed to show it in the test. Hoping he puts his head down and scores a big one next test.
Ross Taylor is young and obviously his test career has just started. He's in the right position at 5, and I think he just needs to play his natural game out there. I'm tipping him to get a half century in the next test. Will end up getting out for about 70 IMO.
McCullum seems to be going backwards a bit. Like Prince said, he can look great but he falls in the same boat as Oram and Styris - too inconsistent and lacking game time.
The fact that Vettori is our second best batsman is a "don't know whether to laugh or cry" thing. It's great that he can perform well with the bat, and that we have him down the order for us to create a stronger tail, but seriously - WHAT THE ****? It shouldn't be down to his and Flemings shoulders. It just makes me shake my head.
I guess we can't expect him to do too much on these pitches either, especially if his opposite number bowled just a handful of overs in the test.
Martin has been our best bowler in the series, IMO. Better than Bond who has been a bit more expensive. I don't know whether it's luck or the simple fact he's bowled well, but he's been economical and has taken wickets. I used to be a big hater of Martin, and reckoned he should be nowhere near the test side, and that he was taking the place of players like Mills and Gillespie, but now (IMO) he's clearly our third best seamer behind Bond and Franklin. Considering those two are injured, I'm glad he's speerheading our attack and not O'Brien who is, and has always been, dire. Hopefully we have a Martin-Gillespie-Mills-Vettori-Oram bowling attack for the next test and IOB is 12th man.
Gillespie has a good FC record and is definitely more of a test-class bowler than a ODI-class bowler and I don't think we should judge him based on his ODI performances. He has pace and IMO will trouble Saffie batsmen given the chance. Mills can seam and swing well and did pretty good last time he was here and deserves another run.
I think Vincent needs to come in for Papps. Cumming is older and more developed than Papps, who will be our opener for a few years to come yet and it's simply a case of out of form and out of practice. Send him home early to play in the domestic comp ahead of the Bangladesh series and let someone who has a better record opening the batting do the job for the time being.
By the time England in England series rolls around, our guys should at least have healed from injuries and gotten some test and first class games under their belts. We should see better performances rolling in then.
What should be the XI for second test:
1. Cumming
2. Vincent
3. Fleming
4. Styris
5. Taylor
6. Oram
7. McCullum
8. Vettori
9. Mills
10. Gillespie
11. Martin
I think Styris and Oram are far too inconsistent for the Blackcaps. Orams bowling saves him, but Styris clearly suffers from a lack of playing long format cricket. He has the ability but not enough game time to be in form. He does well in ODI's because he plays so much of it. I think he simply needs to stay out in the middle and grind out a slow 20 before thinking about a big score. Get himself in. Oram needs to do similar.
Fleming is clearly our best batsman and managed to show it in the test. Hoping he puts his head down and scores a big one next test.
Ross Taylor is young and obviously his test career has just started. He's in the right position at 5, and I think he just needs to play his natural game out there. I'm tipping him to get a half century in the next test. Will end up getting out for about 70 IMO.
McCullum seems to be going backwards a bit. Like Prince said, he can look great but he falls in the same boat as Oram and Styris - too inconsistent and lacking game time.
The fact that Vettori is our second best batsman is a "don't know whether to laugh or cry" thing. It's great that he can perform well with the bat, and that we have him down the order for us to create a stronger tail, but seriously - WHAT THE ****? It shouldn't be down to his and Flemings shoulders. It just makes me shake my head.
I guess we can't expect him to do too much on these pitches either, especially if his opposite number bowled just a handful of overs in the test.
Martin has been our best bowler in the series, IMO. Better than Bond who has been a bit more expensive. I don't know whether it's luck or the simple fact he's bowled well, but he's been economical and has taken wickets. I used to be a big hater of Martin, and reckoned he should be nowhere near the test side, and that he was taking the place of players like Mills and Gillespie, but now (IMO) he's clearly our third best seamer behind Bond and Franklin. Considering those two are injured, I'm glad he's speerheading our attack and not O'Brien who is, and has always been, dire. Hopefully we have a Martin-Gillespie-Mills-Vettori-Oram bowling attack for the next test and IOB is 12th man.
Gillespie has a good FC record and is definitely more of a test-class bowler than a ODI-class bowler and I don't think we should judge him based on his ODI performances. He has pace and IMO will trouble Saffie batsmen given the chance. Mills can seam and swing well and did pretty good last time he was here and deserves another run.
I think Vincent needs to come in for Papps. Cumming is older and more developed than Papps, who will be our opener for a few years to come yet and it's simply a case of out of form and out of practice. Send him home early to play in the domestic comp ahead of the Bangladesh series and let someone who has a better record opening the batting do the job for the time being.
By the time England in England series rolls around, our guys should at least have healed from injuries and gotten some test and first class games under their belts. We should see better performances rolling in then.
What should be the XI for second test:
1. Cumming
2. Vincent
3. Fleming
4. Styris
5. Taylor
6. Oram
7. McCullum
8. Vettori
9. Mills
10. Gillespie
11. Martin
