Garry Sobers-A master of black magic?

[BhupinderSingh]

And I was banned for 6 months(for disturbing forum environment) which is over now,so u want me to get banned again without any reason?

 

[Richard]

Oh, certainly not. You've only ever had 1 account active at a time, whereas wahindiawah\nehrafan\etc. had 50 or so on the go simualtaneosly. But I don't understand why, if you were going to be given one of your old accounts back, it was this one and not your first.

 

[Ikki]

Maybe so, could you normalise his stats then? To me, regardless of era, an average of 34 and a strike rate of 92 with little 4-fers and 5-fers wouldn't translate into much else than what has been said. I've heard of series averages being inflated but not era averages being inflated that much.

Average keeps being touted, that can be understood, but it isn't really the primary thing here. As said, Sobers was economical. The fact that he took so little wickets in comparison to balls bowled is more worrying.

Probably the stupidest thing I said on this site. It matters a lot on the era. I'd like to retract my argument in this thread about Sobers' bowling. In his era, it was fine and often it was very very good. Even better, there were many matches where he combined both disciplines and to which his legacy probably comes from.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Probably the stupidest thing I said on this site. It matters a lot on the era. I'd like to retract my argument in this thread about Sobers' bowling. In his era, it was fine and often it was very very good. Even better, there were many matches where he combined both disciplines and to which his legacy probably comes from.

No man,its a fact that he was nothing more than an ordinary bowler but no doubt he is one of tthe greatest allrounders ever.You said in another thread that he would've manage to make the WI side on his bowling alone.I think its highly laughable as West Indies then had spinners like Sonny Ramadhin,Lance Gibbs etc & fast bowlers like Wes Hall & Charlie Griffith who were all well ahead of Sobers as a bowler.So,he's one of the greatest allrounders but you can't argue that he'd have made the WI side as a bowler alone because he was pretty average.

 

[silentstriker]

Garry Sobers - A master of black magic?

Yes.

 

[Ikki]

No man,its a fact that he was nothing more than an ordinary bowler but no doubt he is one of tthe greatest allrounders ever.You said in another thread that he would've manage to make the WI side on his bowling alone.I think its highly laughable as West Indies then had spinners like Sonny Ramadhin,Lance Gibbs etc & fast bowlers like Wes Hall & Charlie Griffith who were all well ahead of Sobers as a bowler.So,he's one of the greatest allrounders but you can't argue that he'd have made the WI side as a bowler alone because he was pretty average.

Look at his bowling figures when WI won, then look at the thread which lists some of the matches where he not only contributes with bat and ball. It's clear that when he was good he was really good and when he was off he wasn't any good.

Ramadhin is hardly better than Sobers, and when guys like Alf Valentine made the team for their bowling then surely Sobers could.

 

[Sanz]

Look at his bowling figures when WI won, then look at the thread which lists some of the matches where he not only contributes with bat and ball. It's clear that when he was good he was really good and when he was off he wasn't any good.

Ramadhin is hardly better than Sobers, and when guys like Alf Valentine made the team for their bowling then surely Sobers could.

All that is fine but the guy was simply a medicore bowler.

 

[pasag]

Sobers was a better bowler than Valentine and Ramadhin?

 

[Engle]

Just out of curiousity, I checked his last Test match.
Bowled 55 overs and got 3 wkts.
Would a mediocre bowler get to bowl this much in his last Test ? gimpy knee and all.

Sobers bowling figures is suffering the same fate as Trumper or May's batting figures or Qadir's bowling figures.

 

[The Sean]

Probably the stupidest thing I said on this site. It matters a lot on the era. I'd like to retract my argument in this thread about Sobers' bowling. In his era, it was fine and often it was very very good. Even better, there were many matches where he combined both disciplines and to which his legacy probably comes from.

Fair play Kaz.

 

[Sanz]

you can't argue that he'd have made the WI side as a bowler alone because he was pretty average.

Did Sobers not make to the WI team mainly as a bowler ?

 

[neville cardus]

As an opening bowler, Sobers frequently came off when it most mattered. His happy knack for knocking over the top order has been odiously neglected, but it may, perhaps, be illustrated best by his final season with South Australia.

Against their western counterparts, he had both openers for two and a dozen respectively; against Queensland, he removed number two for five and three for one; in the first innings against that great N.S.W. side of '64, he picked up one, two and four for a combined total of nada; in the second innings, it was the first man again for three.

In South Australia's final match of the season, against Victoria, Sobers dismissed Lawry (opening the batting) for four and 22, Redpath (at number two) for nought in the second dig, Potter (number three) for nought in the first, Cowper (four) for nought in the second and Stackpole (five) for five in the first.

In both that Victorian match and the one against the New South Welshmen, by the way, he hit up scores of 124.

 

[shortpitched713]

As an opening bowler, Sobers frequently came off when it most mattered. His happy knack for knocking over the top order has been odiously neglected, but it may, perhaps, be illustrated best by his final season with South Australia.

Against their western counterparts, he had both openers for two and a dozen respectively; against Queensland, he removed number two for five and three for one; in the first innings against that great N.S.W. side of '64, he picked up one, two and four for a combined total of nada; in the second innings, it was the first man again for three.

In South Australia's final match of the season, against Victoria, Sobers dismissed Lawry (opening the batting) for four and 22, Redpath (at number two) for nought in the second dig, Potter (number three) for nought in the first, Cowper (four) for nought in the second and Stackpole (five) for five in the first.

In both that Victorian match and the one against the New South Welshmen, by the way, he hit up scores of 124.

Not Test matches.

Someone was going to say it sooner or later.

 

[Sanz]

Not Test matches.

Someone was going to say it sooner or later.

He only gave an example. Why is it so hard to understand ?

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Look at his bowling figures when WI won, then look at the thread which lists some of the matches where he not only contributes with bat and ball. It's clear that when he was good he was really good and when he was off he wasn't any good.

Ramadhin is hardly better than Sobers, and when guys like Alf Valentine made the team for their bowling then surely Sobers could.

If he was just a bowler,he wouldn't have been able to play much considering he took just 31 wickets in his first 30 matches @ an average of 50.He managed to play that many matches in the back of his superb batting,not bowling.I highly doun\bt he would've been able to play more than 10 tests if he was just a bowler.And @ Ramadhin hardly better than Sobers:

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Did Sobers not make to the WI team mainly as a bowler ?

There have been lot of players who made their teams originally as bowlers but afterward played on the basis of their batting.Majid Khan,Shoaib Malik,Saurav Ganguly are some which come to mind atm.Sobers might've made the WI team originally as a bowler but how he bowled early on in his career(and was utter crap for first 1/3 part of his career averaging 50 & just taking 31 wickets in his first 30 matches which is just 1 wicket a game),he would've been dropped soon if had not transformed himself into an excellent batsman.Would you like Sami,Salisbury & Agarkar to play any more games for their respective countries?I don't think so & similar would've been the case with Sobers.

 

[Sanz]

If he was just a bowler,he wouldn't have been able to play much considering he took just 31 wickets in his first 30 matches @ an average of 50.He managed to play that many matches in the back of his superb batting,not bowling.I highly doun\bt he would've been able to play more than 10 tests if he was just a bowler.And @ Ramadhin hardly better than Sobers:

And the point is ? Isn't it true that Sobers was mainly picked into the team as a bowler (or as a bowling allrounder) rather than a batsman ? Would Imran have been picked only for his batting for most part of career ?

As for Sobers Vs. Ramadhin - As a spinner Sobers probably was not but as a bowler he definately was as good if not better.

 

[neville cardus]

Not Test matches.

Sure, but they were Test-class batsmen. Anyway, if more corroboration is what you seek, here's C.L.R. James: "It is impossible to find within recent years another fast bowler who in big cricket so regularly dismissed for little or 0 the opening batsmen on the other side."

 

[Sanz]

There have been lot of players who made their teams originally as bowlers but afterward played on the basis of their batting.Majid Khan,Shoaib Malik,Saurav Ganguly are some which come to mind atm.Sobers might've made the WI tteam originally as a bowler but how he bowled early on in his career(and was utter crap for first 1/3 part of his career averaging 50 & just taking 31 wickets in his first 30 matches which is just 1 wicket a game),he would've been dropped soon if had not transformed into an excellent batsman.

No but you said, he wouldn't have made it to the team as a bowler which is incorrect because indeed came into the team as a bowler. Atleast Sobers was good enough to make it to the team as a bowler, was Imran good enough to make it to the team as a batsman ? It took him 30 tests to score 1000 runs.

Majid( and Shoaib) may both have started their careers as bowlers but boh had to give up their bowling mainly because of their action or injury. And Sourav started his careers as a bowler is really a news to me, which channel did they say this ?

 

[Sanz]

Sure, but they were Test-class batsmen. Anyway, if more corroboration is what you seek, here's C.L.R. James: "It is impossible to find within recent years another fast bowler who in big cricket so regularly dismissed for little or 0 the opening batsmen on the other side."

Sobers wickets :-

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Players/PlayerWicketAnalysisGraph.asp?PlayerID=1652

1-3 35 %, 4-7 39%, 8-11 26 % (Rounded)