Imran Khan vs Keith Miller

[silentstriker]

According to Wasim, he did take them because of the constant advise of Imran.

 

[Pratters]

Isn't it a fact though ? I think the point Archie is trying to make here is that people are trying to exaggerate Imran's role as captain(and batsman) in Pakistan's victory in the world cup 92 by saying Wasim took the wickets because of Imran, all the players were inspired because of Imran etc etc.

It is also a fact that if Imran had taken to kabaddi instead of cricket, we wouldn't have known Imran's cricket skills. Luck favours those who make the most of it. People might or might not be exaggerating about Imran's x,y,z - that isn't that important to me. Fusion puts it best I think:

Archie, what relevance does that have to Imran's contributions as leader? Weather is part of the game. Just like injuries. Arguably, Pakistan's best bowler that year, Waqar Yunis, got hurt and missed the WC. Who's to say what would've happened if he was available? The fact is, Imran motivated Pakistan to have a great fight back and they never looked back.

Archie says then that Imran maybe wouldn't be regarded as 'as great' if he hadn't won the world cup.

I am wondering if the weather had not helped, would Imran be remembered as such a great captain?

Not saying he was not a great captain, I just like to ponder such things

Why not remove x,y,z from a,b,c's repetoire and then ponder whether a,b,c wouldn't be regarded as 'as great'. Also, Imran doesn't have only the world cup win to his credit regardless of what any one's opinion of Imran as captain might be, not that Archie doesn't think Imran was great captain and not that it is relevent.

 

[funnygirl]

Does anyone remember Saleem Jaffer, another left armer who came into Pakistani team around 1986 ?

I do remember .I do remember what Miandad told about wasim about his first encounter with Wasim ''I was amazed at his skill of swinging the ball at high speed '' . He clean bowled Miandad with an inswinger also .Again Wasim took 10 wickets in his second match and a 5 fer against Australia without Imran's advise . Not denying that imran helped him a lot .But Imran couldn't have made a Saleem Jaffer ,Zakir Khan or Rshid khan into an Akram .

Moreover how Wasim came into the team ,Miandad was so adamant .

 

[funnygirl]

Does anyone remember Saleem Jaffer, another left armer who came into Pakistani team around 1986 ?

I do remember .I do remember what Miandad told about wasim about his first encounter with Wasim ''I was amazed at his skill of swinging the ball at high speed '' . He clean bowled Miandad with an inswinger also .Again Wasim took 10 wickets in his second match and a 5 fer against Australia without Imran's advise . Not denying that imran helped him a lot .But Imran couldn't have made a Saleem Jaffer ,Zakir Khan or Rshid khan into an Akram .

Moreover how Wasim came into the team ,Miandad was so adamant .

About those magic deliveries ,why would Imran ask wasim ,he could have asked Aquib javed to bowl those deliveries .Any one can do any thing with imran's advise alone.

 

[archie mac]

Let me say that I think Imran the greatest Pakistan captain ever

Gee, can't I ask a question, without being jumped on?

I think if Pakstan were knocked out of the WC in 92, Imran might be viewed in a different light, as most of his success as a captain started in this comp. from memory

 

[archie mac]

Let me say that I think Imran the greatest Pakistan captain ever

Gee, can't I ask a question, without being jumped on?

I think if Pakstan were knocked out of the WC in 92, Imran might be viewed in a different light, as most of his success as a captain started in this comp. from memory

 

[archie mac]

Post reported.

Actually that statement is totally lacking in credibility because asides from winning us the World Cup, Imran was also a great Test captain who allowed us to be competitive with any side in the world, including the West Indies who were the best at the time. Before that we were just whipping boys, and Imran's captaincy was instrumental in that change.

Almost as bad as the mole comment, this.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry, but let me say I think the Pakistan team with the talent they had should have done even better

 

[funnygirl]

Which is why it's giving Wasim a criminal lack of credit to assert that, but for Imran, he'd have been a nonentity. I don't see what about Archie's comment you took exception to, given that you've all but agreed with it.

That particular comment from archie archie ...i do agree with him and i am like

 

[Pratters]

Let me say that I think Imran the greatest Pakistan captain ever

Gee, can't I ask a question, without being jumped on?

I think if Pakstan were knocked out of the WC in 92, Imran might be viewed in a different light, as most of his success as a captain started in this comp. from memory

I don't see why you need to adopt a higher plane. No one is jumping on you.

Why not remove x,y,z from a,b,c's repetoire and then analyse them? Would make things pretty silly. Also,

a) Just because Pakistan got lucky with going into the next round doesn't mean they won the world cup just because of that luck. They played well and won it. Lots of teams have a lot of luck in different ways all through cricket competitions and matches. For instance, as Fusion said, Pakistan was also unlucky to not have Waqar in the tournament.

b) You are wrong that most of the success of Imran started after the World Cup. He was test captain during the period 82-92 and most of his success as captain, whatever it was, came before the world cup, not after it.

 

[shortpitched713]

I think if Pakstan were knocked out of the WC in 92, Imran might be viewed in a different light, as most of his success as a captain started in this comp. from memory

Are you taking the piss? Its extremely difficult to tell.

 

[Sanz]

Archie says then that Imran maybe wouldn't be regarded as 'as great' if he hadn't won the world cup.

I dont know If Archie really meant that or he really wanted to ask that question to folks like Bhupinder Singh and others who have been overly exaggertaing his contribution to the WC win or Wasim's development as a bowler.

I think it is the later and I myself have wondered about it a lot. To me Imran was a great captain even before Pak won the world cup. Pak's world cup did not change my opinion about Imran's captanicy by much mostly because I ddidn't think Pakistan won the cup because of his captaincy. Pakistan won the cup because of one thing, which is forte of Pakistani Cricket, Individual Brilliance. Now you may disagree with me on that, but I have watched those games enough times to know I am not far off.

Also, among Pakistanis in general, Imran's stock as captain went up like a rocket after the world cup and hence the over exaggeration of Imran's captaincy in post-92 WC.

 

[Fusion]

Let me say that I think Imran the greatest Pakistan captain ever

Gee, can't I ask a question, without being jumped on?

I think if Pakstan were knocked out of the WC in 92, Imran might be viewed in a different light, as most of his success as a captain started in this comp. from memory

Archie, we're not jumping on you, merely debating. As Pratyush has stated, Imran made his reputation as a great Captain prior to the WC. He made that reputation by winning in India (no easy feat as your Australian greats would testify), winning against England, and by never losing to the dominating West Indies side. The WC victory simply cemented his reputation as a great Captain.

 

[Sanz]

I do remember .I do remember what Miandad told about wasim about his first encounter with Wasim ''I was amazed at his skill of swinging the ball at high speed '' . He clean bowled Miandad with an inswinger also .Again Wasim took 10 wickets in his second match and a 5 fer against Australia without Imran's advise . Not denying that imran helped him a lot .But Imran couldn't have made a Saleem Jaffer ,Zakir Khan or Rshid khan into an Akram .

Moreover how Wasim came into the team ,Miandad was so adamant .

About those magic deliveries ,why would Imran ask wasim ,he could have asked Aquib javed to bowl those deliveries .Any one can do any thing with imran's advise alone.

That's the point I am trying to make. Yes Imran helped Akram, but this whole thing is exaggerated as if there wont be any Akram or Waqar without Imran. Imran also learnt reverse Swing from someone, didn't he ? Imran was not the first bowler to bowl fast, inswing, outswing, yorkers etc, was he ?

 

[Pratters]

I think it is the later and I myself have wondered about it a lot. To me Imran was a great captain even before Pak won the world cup. Pak's world cup did not change my opinion about Imran's captanicy by much mostly because I ddidn't think Pakistan won the cup because of his captaincy. Pakistan won the cup because of one thing, which is forte of Pakistani Cricket, Individual Brilliance. Now you may disagree with me on that, but I have watched those games enough times to know I am not far off.

Ya that is a fair enough view you hold. I did watch the entire 1992 world cup too (though just as a 9-10 year old kid) and followed it pretty keenly. I remember making sure I had the final recorded on VHS because I had school that day. Memories. I should stop ranting and post on the topic at hand though...

My view is that it was a combination of individual brilliance and inspirational captaincy. Individual brilliance has always been there in Pakistan cricket but without inspirational leadership, it is directionless. A good indication of how without proper leadership, individual brilliance cannot lead to much success is how Pakistan faltered as a one day side in the later half of the 90s for me (and the test side to an extent). They had such a solid one day line up but didn't come close to the likes of Australia and South Africa during the phase.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

No Pakistan captain has ever got respect from players like Imran did.Wasim Akram,Waqar,Saleem Malik,Wasim Bari,Abdul Qadir & even Javed Miandad(the person with whom Imran never has had good relations) speak very highly of Imran as a motivational & extremly confident leader who would always enter the ground with to play aggressive & dominative cricket & would never even think of playing a game for a draw.I hardly care about ODIs/World Cup as compared to tests & rate Imran so highly because of what he achieved as a captain in 1980s which was much before the world cup victory.the test team which we had in late 1990s was much better than that of 1980s but they got nowhere near to achieing what Imran did.The Pakistan side led by Intikhab Alam was better than Imran's yet it couldn't give resluts like Imran did.Imran brought unity & fighting instinct to Pakistan,something which no captain(other than Imran) has ever been able to do & probably no one is capable enough of doing that in near future.

 

[biased indian]

No captain has ever got respect from players like Imran did.

is that for pakistan alone or all test playing nations ???

 

[BhupinderSingh]

is that for pakistan alone or all test playing nations ???

Pakistan alone.

 

[archie mac]

Are you taking the piss? Its extremely difficult to tell.

Yes I have read quite a bit about Imran, although I found his biography contained too much on politics

Archie, we're not jumping on you, merely debating. As Pratyush has stated, Imran made his reputation as a great Captain prior to the WC. He made that reputation by winning in India (no easy feat as your Australian greats would testify), winning against England, and by never losing to the dominating West Indies side. The WC victory simply cemented his reputation as a great Captain.

tbh I think the WC cemented him as a great captain, but was wondering if they had failed to make the semi final, would he be remember as an all time great captain or just as a great captain?

I thought people saying it was 'dire' meant on CW that you had crossed the line?

 

[BhupinderSingh]

tbh I think the WC cemented him as a great captain, but was wondering if they had failed to make the semi final, would he be remember as an all time great captain or just as a great captain?

Alltime great captain.

 

[archie mac]

Alltime great captain.

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