Andrew Symonds is at fault himself

[silentstriker]

My younger son is unmarried and a very eligible batchelor with a fabulous career and thus a 'great catch'

Inspite of our being clear thathe has to decide for himself about his marriage we are inundated with marriage proposals. The first thing people talk about is our daughter is fair and we arefrom so and so caste.

Go to one of these matrimony sites and look at the information provided. People re not satisfied with saying that they are Hindus or Sikhs. They ask for (as part of the format) Castes/Sect, Sub castes/Sub sect, Gothra/Gothram besides religion and mother tongue.

The colour options (colour of skin that is) vary from Very Fair and Fair to Wheatish and Dark. Majority looking for brides insist on at least fair if not very fair !

Now its for us to think whether this is a form of racism or not.

As far as child is concerned. Go to a friends house who have had a new addition to the family and if the child is of a darker complexion people will comment on it. The only defference is that in cities they may not do it in front of the family but do it amongst themselves later while in rural areas everyone will talk about it right in front of the mother - particularly if its a girl.

Adds fo fair-skin-creams openly show a dark complexioned girl either not finding a boy friend or a husband and in one ad even a job and then she uses the fair and lovely cream and bingo all dors open.

A similar cream with similar ad is also on telly for men !!

I am sorry but we have a huge hangover about colour.

Yup, exactly. Even in my family, in freaking America, if someone brings home a girl/boy that is darker than them, it throws up a furore like they brought home a Nazi or something. Just last year, my cousin was dating a girl that was a lower caste and his parents have now disowned him.

Totally ridiculous and racism at its ugliest.

 

[vic_orthdox]

I think people are taking an extra step in saying that Symonds thinks that Sreesanth will be racially abused. It's more the fact that every time Sreesanth gets hit, people will cheer that bit louder, especially at the start of games or in Sreesanth's first few overs. Every time he shows off a bit of bravado, the crowd will boo and get stuck into him.

 

[Richard]

So that just makes Indians colourist, not racist?

 

[honestbharani]

So that just makes Indians colourist, not racist?

I honestly dunno how to explain myself any better here. I just meant that the kind of "colorism" or "racism" that exists in India is not the same as what may have existed/still exists in USA or Australia or RSA or wherever. I am sure the Indians have the "the whiter u are, the better looking you are" line of thinking still, but things are changing and it is still not a reason that people will isolate you out here, which is what I believe people mean by racism, or what existed in the US, Australia and RSA and other countries.

 

[silentstriker]

I honestly dunno how to explain myself any better here. I just meant that the kind of "colorism" or "racism" that exists in India is not the same as what may have existed/still exists in USA or Australia or RSA or wherever. I am sure the Indians have the "the whiter u are, the better looking you are" line of thinking still, but things are changing and it is still not a reason that people will isolate you out here, which is what I believe people mean by racism, or what existed in the US, Australia and RSA and other countries.

Whatever you call it - it is absolutely the same thing. I am not sure where you are from but where I lived, the lower castes (who tend to be darker too) are not allowed to touch the upper castes, cannot come into the house except to clean, and the police will do nothing if a couple of them get beat up by the higher castes. Marriage to the untouchable class is obviously unthinkable. It goes a lot deeper than 'better looking.'

And this was six months ago when I was last in India in a major metro, and it was worse in the town I grew up in. You're right, its not racism that exists in USA or Australia - it's a hundred times worse. It's right out in the open and it is culturally and societally encouraged. And I have yet to see it getting better except in superficial ways.

 

[R_D]

Whatever you call it - it is absolutely the same thing. I am not sure where you are from but where I lived, the lower castes (who tend to be darker too) are not allowed to touch the upper castes, cannot come into the house except to clean, and the police will do nothing if a couple of them get beat up by the higher castes. Marriage to the untouchable class is obviously unthinkable. It goes a lot deeper than 'better looking.'

And this was six months ago when I was last in India in a major metro, and it was worse in the town I grew up in. You're right, its not racism that exists in USA or Australia - it's a hundred times worse. It's right out in the open and it is culturally and societally encouraged. And I have yet to see it getting better except in superficial ways.

There you go portraying you're usual.... anything in India is just crap and good old west is the best.
Yes there's discrimination in India and it has exsited for centuries based on caste system but if you think thats far worse than the racism in west than you're mistaken my friend.

You can hide you're caste and just make up a new one but you can't change you're skin colour or change where you came from.. ie.. you're asian or indian etc.
Dude India's only had government for 60 years now and around 40 plus years the corrupt Congress with little progress... it is going to take bit more time for things to change.

 

[silentstriker]

There you go portraying you're usual.... anything in India is just crap and good old west is the best.

Say what? Please dispute what I have said, not what your opinion of me.

Yes there's discrimination in India and it has exsited for centuries based on caste system but if you think thats far worse than the racism in west than you're mistaken my friend.

Considering I personally know a lower caste person who was killed for touching someone of a higher caste (when I was young), and have heard much worse stories anecdotally including burnings, rapes, beatings, etc, I would venture to say that you are simply wrong.

You can hide you're caste and just make up a new one but you can't change you're skin colour or change where you came from.. ie.. you're asian or indian etc.

Oh, you can hide your caste huh? You are born and cannot go to school, your parents are uneducated and so are you and are forced to clean toilets from the age of six, and you're just going to hide your cast - and go where exactly?

Dude India's only had government for 60 years now and around 40 plus years the corrupt Congress with little progress... it is going to take bit more time for things to change.

Not interested in what might happen. Whether you are right or wrong about the future, it is irrelevent to what is happening right now - or at least has happened in my personal experience - which is what my post is aimed at.

 

[honestbharani]

Say what? Please dispute what I have said, not what your opinion of me.



Considering I personally know a lower caste person who was killed for touching someone of a higher caste (when I was young), and have heard much worse stories anecdotally including burnings, rapes, beatings, etc, I would venture to say that you are simply wrong.



Oh, you can hide your caste huh? You are born and cannot go to school, your parents are uneducated and so are you and are forced to clean toilets from the age of six, and you're just going to hide your cast - and go where exactly?



Not interested in what might happen. Whether you are right or wrong about the future, it is irrelevent to what is happening right now - or at least has happened in my personal experience - which is what my post is aimed at.

Put it this way, SS... I am not sure about your parts but in my place and area, the lower caste are doing just fine. Some of them are ministers and I know that a couple of these lower caste guys get better opportunities than I do because of their caste. And also, inter caste marriages are happening a lot more frequently than they used to.


There is absolutely no doubts that such discrimination does still exist at alarming levels in some places in India, but no, it is not as widespread as you think. Having lived in the west, you probably have a better idea of how many "mixed" couples are there, but I just think that we have just the same percentage of inter-caste marriages. There is nothing better or worse when you compare racism to casteism. Both of them are equally and one is not "a thousand times" worse than the other. Maybe you think so, but I don't think many others will.


And yes, you CAN hide your caste and go along in some other caste. It is not easily found out, unlike racism. But that doesn't really make casteism better than racism in any way. As I said, both are forms of discriminating people and both should be opposed vehemently. There is no real justification for saying any of these two is better than the other or whatever.

 

[Sanz]

Whatever you call it - it is absolutely the same thing. I am not sure where you are from but where I lived, the lower castes (who tend to be darker too) are not allowed to touch the upper castes, cannot come into the house except to clean, and the police will do nothing if a couple of them get beat up by the higher castes. Marriage to the untouchable class is obviously unthinkable. It goes a lot deeper than 'better looking.'

And this was six months ago when I was last in India in a major metro, and it was worse in the town I grew up in. You're right, its not racism that exists in USA or Australia - it's a hundred times worse. It's right out in the open and it is culturally and societally encouraged. And I have yet to see it getting better except in superficial ways.

Casteism exists in India, no question but its not 100 times worse than what you see in USA. You are over-exaggerating stuff and mind you I come from a place where castiesm is at its worse.

 

[silentstriker]

And also, inter caste marriages are happening a lot more frequently than they used to.

Difference between inter-caste marriage and a dalit-non-dalit marriage. Marriage of a brahmin to a vaishnav is quite different. In fact, the former actually made a newspaper when it happened around here.

There is absolutely no doubts that such discrimination does still exist at alarming levels in some places in India, but no, it is not as widespread as you think.

Oh, it isn't? 98% of manual labor such as cleaning toilets, scavenging is done by Dalits. I suppose they just like the work?

but I just think that we have just the same percentage of inter-caste marriages. There is nothing better or worse when you compare racism to casteism. Both of them are equally and one is not "a thousand times" worse than the other. Maybe you think so, but I don't think many others will.

Again, inter-caste is different from dalit-non-dalit. My mom was one form of vaishnav while my father was another and by everyone that's considered 'inter-caste', but it hardly the same.

 

[silentstriker]

Casteism exists in India, no question but its not 100 times worse than what you see in USA. You are over-exaggerating stuff and mind you I come from a place where castiesm is at its worse.

The reason I said it is much worse is due to the fact that it is virtually impossible to get an education (at the lower levels) due to not only poverty but societal attitudes. Sure, they have provisioned seats at colleges and universities, but that is irrelevent as most never make it that far because they are forced to drop out before the 5th grade, either due to the fact that the family needs them to work, or due to societal pressures.

The whole system is created to keep a permanent underclass. In the US, it exists, but people have a much better shot to make it through despite the system and comparatively, an unbelievable amount of opportunities exist to help you along the way.

 

[Richard]

I am not sure where you are from

Location: Chennai, India

 

[silentstriker]

My location is Philadelphia, doesn't mean that's where I am from.

 

[Sanz]

The reason I said it is much worse is due to the fact that it is virtually impossible to get an education (at the lower levels) due to not only poverty but societal attitudes. Sure, they have provisioned seats at colleges and universities, but that is irrelevent as most never make it that far because they are forced to drop out before the 5th grade, either due to the fact that the family needs them to work, or due to societal pressures.

There is definately a lot of truth in what you say and I perhaps know it more than most people because not only did I have the opportunity to live in Bihar but also in the tribal part of the state(now Jharkhand) and there I saw how tough it is for the kids from these tribes/castes to get education. But that said, it is not because of any social pressue but due to sheer inability of the parents that these kids dont get proper education.

The whole system is created to keep a permanent underclass/. In the US, it exists, but people have a much better shot to make it through despite the system and comparatively, an unbelievable amount of opportunities exist to help you along the way.

I disagree with this. Government has made all kinds of provisions for them, there is no social pressure on anyone in India to keep their children uneducated. Poverty is there, but it cant be an excuse. Also I think in India the support system for these kids is better than US.

 

[honestbharani]

Difference between inter-caste marriage and a dalit-non-dalit marriage. Marriage of a brahmin to a vaishnav is quite different. In fact, the former actually made a newspaper when it happened around here.



Oh, it isn't? 98% of manual labor such as cleaning toilets, scavenging is done by Dalits. I suppose they just like the work?



Again, inter-caste is different from dalit-non-dalit. My mom was one form of vaishnav while my father was another and by everyone that's considered 'inter-caste', but it hardly the same.

no, I did mean dalit-non-dalits. It is promoted as a Government initiative here in TN. I know what I am talking about.


And yes, a lot of manual labour is done by dalits but that is because of the discrimination that existed a generation or two back. Now, there is a lot of affirmative action happening and a lot of people are getting a shot at education, jobs and the works. I am sure the number will come down gradually as we go along. Right now, it is a situation where the poor people get such jobs and these guys have been discriminated against in the past and are hence, even now, poor and have to settle for these jobs. But as I said, things are changing and the next generation will not suffer as much as this generation. Oh, BTW, juz remember that you are talking about stuff that you haven't seen and I am talking about stuff that I have seen. Books and newspapers alone don't tell the whole story.....

 

[honestbharani]

My location is Philadelphia, doesn't mean that's where I am from.

but in my case, it is absolutely true.

 

[Sanz]

Difference between inter-caste marriage and a dalit-non-dalit marriage. Marriage of a brahmin to a vaishnav is quite different. In fact, the former actually made a newspaper when it happened around here.

And that is limited to India only ? How often do you see Inter-racial(say a white and afro-American) marriages in US ?
I can gaurantee you that Inter-caste marriages(yes even Dalit-Non-Dalit) are a lot more in no. than Inter-racial marriages in US.

 

[Richard]

My location is Philadelphia, doesn't mean that's where I am from.

Well strictly speaking your CW location is under the skin of every poster... but anyway, yeah, get what you were saying now. TBH, though, hbh has mentioned more than once about his lifetime in Chennai.

 

[silentstriker]

And that is limited to India only ? How often do you see Inter-racial(say a white and afro-American) marriages in US ?
I can gaurantee you that Inter-caste marriages(yes even Dalit-Non-Dalit) are a lot more in no. than Inter-racial marriages in US.

Nope, not limited to India only. I don't know about the number, but I will try to find the stats and I can almost guarantee that the percentage of people is much much lower (maybe 10-20x lower).

But I will try to find hard stats.

 

[Sanz]

This might be a good start - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage