Andrew Symonds is at fault himself

[honestbharani]

I've never been to India, but you're INCREDIBLY naive to assume that racism has never existed in India. Incredibly.

And you are incredibly naive to assume that racism is the only form of discrimination. As I said there are other forms of discrimination and that has existed in India, but never racism. If you ever care to read some bits of Indian history, you will see why. As a matter of fact, racism as a phenomenon would have only come to light in INdia much later. Racism never existed here because we never had a population of two starkly contrasting races forming our population. There were other forms of discrimination because the population at that time was divisible by caste more than race.

 

[Sanz]

And you are incredibly naive to assume that racism is the only form of discrimination. As I said there are other forms of discrimination and that has existed in India, but never racism. If you ever care to read some bits of Indian history, you will see why. As a matter of fact, racism as a phenomenon would have only come to light in INdia much later. Racism never existed here because we never had a population of two starkly contrasting races forming our population. There were other forms of discrimination because the population at that time was divisible by caste more than race.

HB, Casteism is racism too. I agree it is not like Black and White or color of skin racism, but it is a form of racism. At the risk of making some generalizations, Let me say this :-

I have travelled extensively in Northern India and you go to Punjab, Delhi, Haryana and there you will see the attitudes of Punjabis towards people from Eastern or Southern India, you will be amazed to see the blatant racism they show on your face esp in restraurants, Hotels. And I must say, From my experience, Chandigarh is the most racist town in the world. I have not experienced that kind of blatant racism even in America.

 

[Richard]

I wish more people were like Gelman on avec this issue.

Yep, me too.

Touring sides are guests and should be treated like it IMO. If you want to do everything you can to stop them winning, why not go to obscene lengths and cause disturbances at the hotels the night before games, disrupt net-sessions and break into the changing-rooms and cause as much debris as you can?

There's no way you can completely divorce what happens on the field and off it.

People have plenty enough home advantage due to the fact they can (usually) control the surfaces prepared, and that (obviously) they're more likely to be familiar with the climate. Everyone in a country, AFAIC, should do everything they can to welcome touring sides and aid them. Anyone who doesn't doesn't deserve to be called a true cricket fan, really, because they're more concerned about their team than the game, which is never right.

 

[biased indian]

HB, Casteism is racism too. I agree it is not like Black and White or color of skin racism, but it is a form of racism. At the risk of making some generalizations, Let me say this :-

I have travelled extensively in Northern India and you go to Punjab, Delhi, Haryana and there you will see the attitudes of Punjabis towards people from Eastern or Southern India, you will be amazed to see the blatant racism they show on your face esp in restraurants, Hotels. And I must say, From my experience, Chandigarh is the most racist town in the world. I have not experienced that kind of blatant racism even in America.

i have travelled a lot in north india and am from south india never once had to face such a problem....never went to punjab though.

 

[SJS]

i have travelled a lot in north india and am from south india never once had to face such a problem....never went to punjab though.

Rascism exists in India basically in the form of bias against colour. This manifests itself in wanting to have a fair coloured child, daughter in law etc. Using all measures to try to lighten the skin colour. Indians will not agree this is rascism.

Caste system prevails not so much as the untouchability of old but in wanting to marry in your own caste etc. The exteme forms of caste system exist in very few and undeveloped pockets but it does exist.

Its humbug to say that in Punjab or Northern India people from east or south are treated in any shabby manner. I have lived there for 35 years and its not true at all.

But we have our own forms of rascism as pointed out above.

 

[biased indian]

Rascism exists in India basically in the form of bias against colour. This manifests itself in wanting to have a fair coloured child, daughter in law etc. Using all measures to try to lighten the skin colour. Indians will not agree this is rascism.

Caste system prevails not so much as the untouchability of old but in wanting to marry in your own caste etc. The exteme forms of caste system exist in very few and undeveloped pockets but it does exist.

Its humbug to say that in Punjab or Northern India people from east or south are treated in any shabby manner. I have lived there for 35 years and its not true at all.

But we have our own forms of rascism as pointed out above.

fair coloured child i dont know...........D I L i agree..most well to do familys go for a Fair girl given a choice.but that to is not out in open..most usally they will see the photograph and will have some ready made answers like "kundili nahi miltha hai"(i hope i my hindi ia rite)

 

[Sanz]

Its humbug to say that in Punjab or Northern India people from east or south are treated in any shabby manner. I have lived there for 35 years and its not true at all.

You are not from Eastern India or Southern India, so you wont know it. Just because you dont do it doesn't mean it does not exist. In Delhi one very often hears words like 'Utar Lo BiharioyoN Tumhara Bihar Aaa Gaya' almost every time the Bus stops near the IIT Campus (jiya Sarai/Katwaria Sarai), Try paying a visit to those areas where people from other states live and try talking to locals, you will be educated.

Chandigarh I would repeat, IMO, is the racist capital of the world.

 

[SJS]

fair coloured child i dont know...........D I L i agree..most well to do familys go for a Fair girl given a choice.but that to is not out in open..most usally they will see the photograph and will have some ready made answers like "kundili nahi miltha hai"(i hope i my hindi ia rite)

My younger son is unmarried and a very eligible batchelor with a fabulous career and thus a 'great catch'

Inspite of our being clear thathe has to decide for himself about his marriage we are inundated with marriage proposals. The first thing people talk about is our daughter is fair and we arefrom so and so caste.

Go to one of these matrimony sites and look at the information provided. People re not satisfied with saying that they are Hindus or Sikhs. They ask for (as part of the format) Castes/Sect, Sub castes/Sub sect, Gothra/Gothram besides religion and mother tongue.

The colour options (colour of skin that is) vary from Very Fair and Fair to Wheatish and Dark. Majority looking for brides insist on at least fair if not very fair !

Now its for us to think whether this is a form of racism or not.

As far as child is concerned. Go to a friends house who have had a new addition to the family and if the child is of a darker complexion people will comment on it. The only defference is that in cities they may not do it in front of the family but do it amongst themselves later while in rural areas everyone will talk about it right in front of the mother - particularly if its a girl.

Adds fo fair-skin-creams openly show a dark complexioned girl either not finding a boy friend or a husband and in one ad even a job and then she uses the fair and lovely cream and bingo all dors open.

A similar cream with similar ad is also on telly for men !!

I am sorry but we have a huge hangover about colour.

 

[SJS]

​

There is an article today in the Editorial of DNA Mumbai

Not Fair Play

The racial remarks and gestures reportedly made by the crowd to Australian player Andrew Symonds, during India’s fifth one day international against Australia at Vadodara is something which Indian cricket authorities must take under observation. Across the world and in all sport, racism is frowned upon and treated very seriously. Cricketers from the Indian sub-continent have often accused the other teams and the international cricket body of racism.

In the case of Andrew Symonds, the charge is double edged. Indians take issue with the hedgemony of white countries in running cricket. Symonds was called and likened to a monkey because he is not white. We are, then accused of what we have blamed others of doing. Although there has been no official complaint yet from Australia, some action by the Indian cricket authorities is called for.

The charge that Indians are racist is not new. Visitors from African nations bear the brunt of our bigotry. It is equally well known that skin colour is a big issue with us, the whiter the better. We fought against our British colonizers, but the deep Indian desire for skin quite predates 200 years of white colonial rule.

Unfortunately we have no mechanism in place to counter rascist attacks in India, private or public. There are no awareness building measures which explain that needlessly insulting someone for their race is disrespectful both tpo yourself and to others.

Continued…..

 

[biased indian]

You are not from Eastern India or Southern India, so you wont know it. Just because you dont do it doesn't mean it does not exist. In Delhi one very often hears words like 'Utar Lo BiharioyoN Tumhara Bihar Aaa Gaya' almost every time the Bus stops near the IIT Campus (jiya Sarai/Katwaria Sarai), Try paying a visit to those areas where people from other states live and try talking to locals, you will be educated.

Chandigarh I would repeat, IMO, is the racist capital of the world.

Dont put your experiance to lable a city like that

or add among the cities i have visited...

becuse i am sure therewill be cities out there in the world ..which will be far far worse

 

[honestbharani]

Rascism exists in India basically in the form of bias against colour. This manifests itself in wanting to have a fair coloured child, daughter in law etc. Using all measures to try to lighten the skin colour. Indians will not agree this is rascism.

Caste system prevails not so much as the untouchability of old but in wanting to marry in your own caste etc. The exteme forms of caste system exist in very few and undeveloped pockets but it does exist.

Its humbug to say that in Punjab or Northern India people from east or south are treated in any shabby manner. I have lived there for 35 years and its not true at all.

But we have our own forms of rascism as pointed out above.

yeah, I suppose you can call it racism but it is different to what is perceived as racism in other countries across the world. That is what I was trying to point out.


And of course, ANY and ALL forms of discrimination is bad, whether it be on the base of race, caste or religion or whatever else. Please don't think I am saying India are better than Australia in that regard or whatever. I just meant to say that the kind of discrimination that may exist in Australia is different to the kind of discrimination that exists in India. That's all. Hope no one is offended by my posts and if they are, I am genuinely sorry.

 

[honestbharani]

​

There is an article today in the Editorial of DNA Mumbai

Not Fair Play

The racial remarks and gestures reportedly made by the crowd to Australian player Andrew Symonds, during India’s fifth one day international against Australia at Vadodara is something which Indian cricket authorities must take under observation. Across the world and in all sport, racism is frowned upon and treated very seriously. Cricketers from the Indian sub-continent have often accused the other teams and the international cricket body of racism.

In the case of Andrew Symonds, the charge is double edged. Indians take issue with the hedgemony of white countries in running cricket. Symonds was called and likened to a monkey because he is not white. We are, then accused of what we have blamed others of doing. Although there has been no official complaint yet from Australia, some action by the Indian cricket authorities is called for.

The charge that Indians are racist is not new. Visitors from African nations bear the brunt of our bigotry. It is equally well known that skin colour is a big issue with us, the whiter the better. We fought against our British colonizers, but the deep Indian desire for skin quite predates 200 years of white colonial rule.

Unfortunately we have no mechanism in place to counter rascist attacks in India, private or public. There are no awareness building measures which explain that needlessly insulting someone for their race is disrespectful both tpo yourself and to others.

Continued…..

I dunno SJS, but a number of guys who are quite black in skin color (and a number of girls, for that matter) were pretty much regarded as among the hottest people in my college etc. I do agree that we still think that the whiter the person, the better looking they are, but it is not to such a great extent.

Also, the thing to be noted is, in general, we are neither white nor black. We are brown.. So while what you say may hold true at times, I happen to know that just about everyone in my father's family (his sisters and brothers and he himself) are quite black and in my mom's side, everyone has very fair complexioned skin. It didn't stop them from thinking that my dad wasn't good looking or whatever. And I do think I am kinda qualified to speak on this, being a hybrid of the dark complexion of my dad and the fair complexion of my mom.

 

[SJS]

I dunno SJS, but a number of guys who are quite black in skin color (and a number of girls, for that matter) were pretty much regarded as among the hottest people in my college etc. I do agree that we still think that the whiter the person, the better looking they are, but it is not to such a great extent.

Also, the thing to be noted is, in general, we are neither white nor black. We are brown.. So while what you say may hold true at times, I happen to know that just about everyone in my father's family (his sisters and brothers and he himself) are quite black and in my mom's side, everyone has very fair complexioned skin. It didn't stop them from thinking that my dad wasn't good looking or whatever. And I do think I am kinda qualified to speak on this, being a hybrid of the dark complexion of my dad and the fair complexion of my mom.

1. Itapplies more to girls than boys though we know that boys hankered for fair skin too. Even Lord Krishna asks his mother "Radho kyun gori main kyun kala" - why is Radho fair and I am dark.

2. Yes things are changing for sure. And the younger generation is less biased or not biased at all. That explains your personal experiences.

But talk to the elders and to the rural folk and it is very much there.

I have friends from your part of the country - Karnataka - who do keep mentioning that they are different from others (they mean in colour). Even in Hyderabad I have heard people talking of some families havingfairer skins and wanting to keep it so for coming generations.

But things are changing-sure havent changed comletely.

Fair and Lovely or such products are absolute hot cakes. Even more popular than hair growth and weight loss remedies

 

[SJS]

yeah, I suppose you can call it racism but it is different to what is perceived as racism in other countries across the world. That is what I was trying to point out.

You are right. We dont even think for a second that this is rascism. This is exactly what needs to change now that we are more exposed to other cultures than before and to the concepts of perceptions being equally important.

Wasim Akram and Imran keep harping about these 'goras' and those 'goras' . They dont think for a minute that this is racism - nor do all of us who lap it up but how is it any different from saying these blacks and those blacks.

Everyform of racism when first pointed out appears laughable to those used to it as an everyday life component. I remember in the early seventies, I made some South African friends, they just did not think there was anything abhorrent about aparthied. Really. I am sure not many whites think like that any more. We become de-sensitised due to hundreds of years of conditioning.

People dont understand that when you call a Sikh, Sardarji he might be feeling offended even though you have added the 'ji' which is respectful. The offense comes from the conveying of the idea , howsoever unintended, that he is different from you. This is also racism of sorts. This is what is takingveryvery long for us in India to appreciate.

Why should you address someone as Miyanji or Sardarji. Its wrong because by so doing you are placing them as persons of a particular religion where as you should be calling them Mister, Janaab, or whatever in case you dont know there names.

I know many Indians find it silly that these terms could be offensive but so was the case when someone first told me on my firsttrip to USA thirty years ago that the N word was not to be used. I laughed and said it was the silliest thing I had ever heard. Try doing that today.

 

[honestbharani]

yeah, agree with both ur above posts, SJS. But we can only give it time and see. As you said, things are changing now.


I remember so many south Indian actors in interviews recently. They all talked about Rajnikanth paved the way for dark skinned guys to become heroes in movies. Apparently, before that, if you were not fair in color or at least moderate, you won't be considered for lead roles in movies. So I guess what you say must be true.

 

[SJS]

yeah, agree with both ur above posts, SJS. But we can only give it time and see. As you said, things are changing now.


I remember so many south Indian actors in interviews recently. They all talked about Rajnikanth paved the way for dark skinned guys to become heroes in movies. Apparently, before that, if you were not fair in color or at least moderate, you won't be considered for lead roles in movies. So I guess what you say must be true.

And if you were considered, you had inches of make up to cover it

 

[Richard]

Adds fo fair-skin-creams openly show a dark complexioned girl either not finding a boy friend or a husband and in one ad even a job and then she uses the fair and lovely cream and bingo all dors open.

A similar cream with similar ad is also on telly for men !!

That sort of "success" ad was banned in this country a long time ago. Nothing is allowed to portray "use this product and you will get success" (be it in getting a job\money or getting ***) and TBH I see the reasons behind it.

 

[Matt79]

Surely hasn't been really banned, maybe just a bit more subtle. Its the basis of pretty much every ad ever written that using the product will make you happier, more succesful, wealthier etc etc...

 

[Richard]

Actually, I think I'm referring to as all-inclusive a ruling that pertains only to alcohol.

 

[vic_orthdox]

In India, we get guys of all colors too pretty much and it is not unusual to be called a "white monkey" or a "black monkey", but given the fact that racism just about does not exist in Indian society, it is never meant or taken with a racist point of view.

So that just makes Indians colourist, not racist?