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Best bowling attack you can think of

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
I consider Miller one of the top 3 allrounders of alltime but don't think it would be a great decision to have him as one of the bowlers considering he would take 3 wickets per match despite having an average of 22.
With ...
  • Barnes averaging 7 per test
  • Murali 6.2 per test
  • Grimmett 5.8 per test and
  • Lillee 5.1 per test
a fifth bowler averaging 3.1 per test at 22 each is not to be scoffed at.

Between the five of them they add up to 27.2 wickets per test, many more than you need to take and I am convinced it is higher than any other combination offered here where the fifth bowler is an allrounder averaging 37 with the bat and can bat at number four for the best side in the world.
 

funnygirl

State Regular
With Imran already there as an allrounder /captain .The four bowlers will be


W Akram
S Warne
M Holding
C Ambrose
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Would you have Imran batting at 7/8 or be tempted to stick him in at 6 and squeeze in an extra bowler?
Maybe. I don't much like spinners, but I can concede that sometimes they can be useful. But you do need to bat down to eight, so I'd have Imran at eight with someone like Gilly at seven. Considering Sobers would be six, that would be a really nice bowling line up. If you absolutely twist my arm and force me to pick a spinner, I'd have a lower-middle order of something like Sobers-Gilchrist-Warne-Barnes-Marshall-McGrath. Imran would have to miss out for Warne, so we'd maintain batting plus a pace lineup of Marshall-McGrath to open and Sobers and Barnes coming in later.

Either way, your #8 needs to be able to put together a few runs and/or keep his wicket while the top order bats. And since the #6 spot is pretty much on lockdown mode with Sobers in my team, Imran and Warne fight it out for #8.
 
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Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
Didn't say the extra bowler had to be a spinner - I know how you feel about them! ;) And Barnes would kinda fill that role anyway.

But Sobers would be the fifth bowler if he'd be at number 6 anyway. I have Sobers at 6 and Imran at 8 in my all-time team too.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Didn't say the extra bowler had to be a spinner -
Yea, I think five fast bowlers PLUS Sobers would be a bit much. You'd have to cut overs from someone in the top four, which isn't something you'd want to do. Four bowlers + a batting all rounder is a good attack, I think. If we have Imran, we'd have a batting all rounder AND a bowling all rounder, or if we have Warne, we'd have a spin bowler plus someone who can bat a bit.

In an all time side, Sobers would be used primarily as a change up bowler, or to bowl spin/pace as needed to give the others a rest, if the pitch demanded it, if someone was injured, so someone can switch ends, or throw a few down in case the rest of the attack wasn't working (i.e break a big partnership).

I wouldn't see him bowling more than 6-9 overs in a day, because for every over you are giving Sobers, you are giving one less over to McGrath, Marshall, Barnes, and Imran/Warne, and I don't see that as being worthwhile except in the cases I mentioned above.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Am disappointed in the number of people factoring in anything other than pure bowling ability. Forget the makeup of the side, this isn't about picking a team, it's about picking a bowling-attack.

Also confess myself nothing less than astonished that anyone, never mind a large number, would pick Wasim Akram in the best four\five bowlers ever! :blink: Sure, he was brilliant, but there were quite a few more so, even if you don't believe Imran Khan was one of them.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Am disappointed in the number of people factoring in anything other than pure bowling ability. Forget the makeup of the side, this isn't about picking a team, it's about picking a bowling-attack.

Also confess myself nothing less than astonished that anyone, never mind a large number, would pick Wasim Akram in the best four\five bowlers ever! :blink: Sure, he was brilliant, but there were quite a few more so, even if you don't believe Imran Khan was one of them.
People want variety, of the left-arm style. Obviously you don't agree that variety is necessary in a bowling attack, but others probably do. Wasim Akram, being the best left-arm fast bowler in Test history, fits the bill perfectly. It has to be said Alan Davidson wouldn't be too far off Wasim.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
People want variety, of the left-arm style. Obviously you don't agree that variety is necessary in a bowling attack, but others probably do. Wasim Akram, being the best left-arm fast bowler in Test history, fits the bill perfectly. It has to be said Alan Davidson wouldn't be too far off Wasim.
It's very conceivable to me that Davidson was indeed better not merely than Wasim but most other bowlers in history, and just doesn't get the credit he deserves for the same reason someone like Kenny Barrington doesn't with the bat - ie, he did his job incredibly effectively, but very unobtrusively.

Anyway, I just don't understand why you'd want a merely excellent left-armer when you can have five superlative right-armers. In any case, if you've got Barnes in an attack that's pretty much all the variety you could wish for in one bowler!
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It's very conceivable to me that Davidson was indeed better not merely than Wasim but most other bowlers in history, and just doesn't get the credit he deserves for the same reason someone like Kenny Barrington doesn't with the bat - ie, he did his job incredibly effectively, but very unobtrusively.

Anyway, I just don't understand why you'd want a merely excellent left-armer when you can have five superlative right-armers. In any case, if you've got Barnes in an attack that's pretty much all the variety you could wish for in one bowler!
Well what I meant was that Wasim Akram is regarded as the best left-arm fast bowler in the history of the game, with Davison second and Chaminda Vaas a reasonably distant third. Davison's relative lack of Test wickets is probably what counts against him, just the 186 scaps compared to Wasim's 414. Also, it's crazy why Barrington doesn't get more credit, 85 Tests with over 6000 runs an average of almost 60. Magnificent.

People could argue that having a left-arm bowler gives them variety. While Wasim may not be as good as Imran, Hadlee or Marshall, he has the extra variety that he brings to the bowling crease because he is a left-armer. Some batsman struggle with left-arm bowling because it comes at them from an awkward angle, whereas some seem to play it much better.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Well what I meant was that Wasim Akram is regarded as the best left-arm fast bowler in the history of the game, with Davison second and Chaminda Vaas a reasonably distant third. Davison's relative lack of Test wickets is probably what counts against him, just the 186 scaps compared to Wasim's 414. Also, it's crazy why Barrington doesn't get more credit, 85 Tests with over 6000 runs an average of almost 60. Magnificent.
That's honestly never really bothered me, and I've never heard anyone openly suggest it (doesn't mean it's not subconscious, of course). 186 wickets is easily enough (especially in the 1950s and 60s) to be considered up there with the best IMO. If it's a case like Frank Tyson with 75 wickets I can see a case for well-but-it-was-only-a-few. But 186 - no, that's plenty. Davidson suffers in the best-seamer-ever stakes, I think, only in unobtrusiveness.
People could argue that having a left-arm bowler gives them variety. While Wasim may not be as good as Imran, Hadlee or Marshall, he has the extra variety that he brings to the bowling crease because he is a left-armer. Some batsman struggle with left-arm bowling because it comes at them from an awkward angle, whereas some seem to play it much better.
But all batsmen struggle with high-calibre bowling, regardless of angle of attack. The "you need variation" argument has never, to me, made the slightest sense. Five good bowlers are five good bowlers, even if they're all exactly the same. If anyone would turn down the chance to have five Glenn McGraths and instead take three McGraths and two Stuart MacGills they're beyond insane.
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
The purely bowling and no other factors thing is fair enough, but if you're naming a fifth bowler, you have to consider their batting because you can't have five specialist bowlers who can't hold a bat - you might as well say I'll name 10 specialist bowlers.

Agree 100% with Perm re the value of a left hander.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
The purely bowling and no other factors thing is fair enough, but if you're naming a fifth bowler, you have to consider their batting because you can't have five specialist bowlers who can't hold a bat - you might as well say I'll name 10 specialist bowlers.
Hmm, fair noof to an extent I suppose, but give me a discussion on best-attack over one on best-team or top-10-bowlers-in-X any day.

I can at least pretend to myself there's some variety there. :p
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
That's honestly never really bothered me, and I've never heard anyone openly suggest it (doesn't mean it's not subconscious, of course). 186 wickets is easily enough (especially in the 1950s and 60s) to be considered up there with the best IMO. If it's a case like Frank Tyson with 75 wickets I can see a case for well-but-it-was-only-a-few. But 186 - no, that's plenty. Davidson suffers in the best-seamer-ever stakes, I think, only in unobtrusiveness.
It wasn't so much a slight on Davidson's behalf as it was a compliment to Wasim 414 wickets is one hell of an acheivement, over twice as many as Davidson. Davidson did manage to play Test cricket for ten years, so it's not like he never had a career of any length. I'm just saying that Wasim's much superior number of wickets probably cause him to be considered a better bowler than Davidson, fairly or not.

But all batsmen struggle with high-calibre bowling, regardless of angle of attack. The "you need variation" argument has never, to me, made the slightest sense. Five good bowlers are five good bowlers, even if they're all exactly the same. If anyone would turn down the chance to have five Glenn McGraths and instead take three McGraths and two Stuart MacGills they're beyond insane.
You've presented a different argument, as we were talking about seam bowlers, and I never once mentioned spin bowlers needing to be in an attack to add variety. Spinners have other qualities that sometimes fast bowlers can't produce. All batsman do struggle with high-calibre bowling, that's correct, but Wasim was well capable of bowling at such a standard. Factor into that the angle at which he was bowling, which can cause uncertainty in a batsmans mind, and then perhaps he can be as effective as some of the other bowlers mentioned.

Variation does aid a bowling attack. The South African team of the past few years is a perfect example. Makhaya Ntini, Shaun Pollock, Andre Nel plus two or three other fast bowlers. They've made an effective bowling unit, yes, but what is often missing is a high-class spinner, or somebody who bowls at a different angle to the right-arm medium-fast bowlers that South Africa have in abudance. Eventually a batsman will get used to the ball coming from the same area, and that is where a left-armer can be very useful, to change the angle of attack.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
It wasn't so much a slight on Davidson's behalf as it was a compliment to Wasim 414 wickets is one hell of an acheivement, over twice as many as Davidson. Davidson did manage to play Test cricket for ten years, so it's not like he never had a career of any length. I'm just saying that Wasim's much superior number of wickets probably cause him to be considered a better bowler than Davidson, fairly or not.
I honestly don't know that they do, TBH. I think Davidson is routinely considered automatically inferior to the likes of Lindwall and Miller who had relatively similar tallies. While this may be true, it also may not be.

I think the main reason virtually no-one ever remembers Davidson is that, apart from taking wickets at a phenominal rate, there wasn't really that much to remember him for. If Glenn McGrath had been as quiet as him, he might well be suffering a similar fate in 40 years' time.
You've presented a different argument, as we were talking about seam bowlers, and I never once mentioned spin bowlers needing to be in an attack to add variety. Spinners have other qualities that sometimes fast bowlers can't produce. All batsman do struggle with high-calibre bowling, that's correct, but Wasim was well capable of bowling at such a standard. Factor into that the angle at which he was bowling, which can cause uncertainty in a batsmans mind, and then perhaps he can be as effective as some of the other bowlers mentioned.
I only mentioned spinners because I couldn't think of another left-arm seamer than Wasim or Vaas (and I don't want to use them as I've argued in the past that both have qualities superior to McGrath).

Either way - I just think there were bowlers capable of that bit more than Wasim, who'd cause that bit more trouble than him, not because they bowled with the left-arm, but because they bowled with that bit more relentlessness.
Variation does aid a bowling attack. The South African team of the past few years is a perfect example. Makhaya Ntini, Shaun Pollock, Andre Nel plus two or three other fast bowlers. They've made an effective bowling unit, yes, but what is often missing is a high-class spinner, or somebody who bowls at a different angle to the right-arm medium-fast bowlers that South Africa have in abudance. Eventually a batsman will get used to the ball coming from the same area, and that is where a left-armer can be very useful, to change the angle of attack.
The trouble the SAfricans have had is nothing to do with a spinner and everything to do with the inconsistency of their seamers. Pollock was oft-written-off as gone until last season; Ntini has still to convince most people on all surfaces; Nel has still to hold down an undisputed Test place for long. They never had anything like these troubles when they had Donald, de Villiers, Matthews and McMillan, nor Donald, Pollock, Kallis and Klusener, because these 4 were all top-class.

Of course variety can aid an attack, but it can do no more than turn a potent one into that bit more potent. A rubbish left-arm seamer is a rubbish left-arm seamer, and his variation will do far more harm than good. The same applies to fingerspinners and wayward wristspinners.
 

steds

Hall of Fame Member
:-O O'Reilly and Marshall never played for Lancs!
That's because for once I'm being entirely serious.

The purely bowling and no other factors thing is fair enough, but if you're naming a fifth bowler, you have to consider their batting because you can't have five specialist bowlers who can't hold a bat - you might as well say I'll name 10 specialist bowlers.
Not sure about that. You're probably right but "the best bowling attack you can think of" is pretty unclear wording and open for interpretation. I read it as being a pure bowling attack, rather than "the bowlers out of the best team you can think of" myself. Mainly because I cbf taking batting into account, but meh...
 

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