How good a bowler was Dennis Lillee?

[Richard]

You can't have it both ways mate, Llillee said he had six clear LBW decisions knocked back in that Pakistan series.

And Holding probably had about that in New Zealand, yet he still did better on that tour than Lillee did on that Pakistan tour of his.

Holding's sole weak link is far less weak than Lillee's.

 

[Richard]

Lillee hardly lacked any of those.

I know he didn't, that's just the point I'm making. In these departments he was pretty well unarguably superior to all his rivals. However, the point I argue is that his actual achievements aren't quite in the league of some, and that due to his superiority in less relevant factors, people often overlook his slight lagging behind in more relevant ones.

 

[Richard]

If Imran Khan, surely the first great fast bowler from the sub-cont who knows more about fast bowling than most, does not hold DKL's record in the sub-cont against him, then who are mere posters like us to do so ?

What I want to know is why he doesn't. Has he ever even mentioned the fact? (No, I'm not suggesting he's unaware of it, just that it surprises me that someone like Imran would not mention it and think something of it)

 

[vic_orthdox]

Probably because cricketers don't bother scouring StatsGuru to work out who was the best they played against.

 

[archie mac]

What I want to know is why he doesn't. Has he ever even mentioned the fact? (No, I'm not suggesting he's unaware of it, just that it surprises me that someone like Imran would not mention it and think something of it)

Because he does not think 3 Tests makes any difference I should think

 

[Engle]

Because he does not think 3 Tests makes any difference I should think

My thinking exactly. He starts off Chapter 9, Best of the Rest :
As far as I am concerned, the sign of an outstanding player is his ability to perform well consistently under pressure. He must also be a complete team man.
The bowler who really stands out is Dennis Lillee, and I had the great fortune to play against him when he was at his best, in 1976-7, on my first trip to Australia.

More praise on DKL follows...

 

[Engle]

Continuing on that point, if ESPN judges rate Lillee the best quickie, who are we to think we know better :

Judges : WAkram, RBenaud, DBird, ABorder, IChappell, TCozier, MCrowe, SGavaskar, RHadlee, MHolding, JKnowles, RMarlar, CMJenkins, MProcter

 

[archie mac]

My thinking exactly. He starts off Chapter 9, Best of the Rest :
As far as I am concerned, the sign of an outstanding player is his ability to perform well consistently under pressure. He must also be a complete team man.
The bowler who really stands out is Dennis Lillee, and I had the great fortune to play against him when he was at his best, in 1976-7, on my first trip to Australia.

More praise on DKL follows...

You can read just about every book written by any of DKLs contemporaries and they will all say the same thing. Lillee is/was the best

 

[archie mac]

Continuing on that point, if ESPN judges rate Lillee the best quickie, who are we to think we know better :

Judges : WAkram, RBenaud, DBird, ABorder, IChappell, TCozier, MCrowe, SGavaskar, RHadlee, MHolding, JKnowles, RMarlar, CMJenkins, MProcter

Benaud was born in 1930 into a cricket mad family, so I would imagine in fact I know he watched just about every great bowler from 1947 until 2007, I imagine some of them must have a little 'showmanship' seems funny how Mr Lillee was able to trick him like no one else

 

[Chubby Rain]

Lets just agree that outside of the subcontinent, Lillee was one of the greatest bowlers ever, perhaps the greatest.

 

[pasag]

Probably because cricketers don't bother scouring StatsGuru to work out who was the best they played against.

Haha, yeah.

 

[social]

Where TF have I said otherwise? I'm making no reference to that particular missed tour, more the fact that there must be some reason why he's perceived to have been reluctant to go to Pakistan again.

Boycs hardly failed in their absence...

I never called anyone quitters, incidentally, but defecting to WSC does reflect badly upon someone in a purely cricketing sense, as they were opting for meaningless, worthless cricket ahead of proper stuff.

a. Expressing indifference to touring a country is different to pulling out

b. Averaged 21 in Oz in 78/79 against one of the weakest attacks in our history

c. Head in sand again

 

[Slifer]

ESPN Legends rates Lillee as the best fast bowler. In fact, #6 amongst all cricketers.

Wisden similarly rated Lillee as the best fast bowler, again #6 amongst all cricketers.

Any panel that rates Lillee as the #6 greatest cricketer of all time shouldnt be taken seriously tbh

 

[Perm]

Any panel that rates Lillee as the #6 greatest cricketer of all time shouldnt be taken seriously tbh

DWTA. His personality and aura contribute to his ranking, not to mention the work he has put in after his playing days all add to the reasons he could be rated that highly.

 

[Slifer]

For his influence on cricket perhaps. But as far as pure cricketing skills goes DK is not the #6 of all time.

 

[archie mac]

For his influence on cricket perhaps. But as far as pure cricketing skills goes DK is not the #6 of all time.

Why not?

 

[archie mac]

DWTA. His personality and aura contribute to his ranking, not to mention the work he has put in after his playing days all add to the reasons he could be rated that highly.

He was cosidered the best fast bowler ever while he was still playing the game, so a ranking in the top 6 would have been likely even then

 

[Perm]

He was cosidered the best fast bowler ever while he was still playing the game, so a ranking in the top 6 would have been likely even then

By Wisden? Sounds about right, not saying I agree with that ranking, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me. I'm not disputing his #6 ranking as the greatest cricketer, because his aura and personality adds so much more to him as a cricketer than his actual skills as a bowler.

 

[archie mac]

By Wisden? Sounds about right, not saying I agree with that ranking, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me. I'm not disputing his #6 ranking as the greatest cricketer, because his aura and personality adds so much more to him as a cricketer than his actual skills as a bowler.

Not sure about Wisden tbh, I could check it up, but that is a lot of reading

 

[Matt79]

I never called anyone quitters, incidentally, but defecting to WSC does reflect badly upon someone in a purely cricketing sense, as they were opting for meaningless, worthless cricket ahead of proper stuff.

You always trot this out, and you're still be pretty much entirely wrong. Virtually nobody agrees with you on this, and you've as much as admitted previously that your basis for saying this is your own personal romanticism regarding the sanctity of cricket between the established national boards, as opposed to any principles of merit.