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***Official*** India in England

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
drop sree for Bose or Sharma, it really doesn't matter to me, esp. since it seems we will have clear weather at London and the Oval is not known for its swing.


practice game will be crucial. For me, India should play Sree, Ishant, Bose and RPS along with Powar as the spinner, Karthik to keep, Gambhir, Jaffar, Dravid and Yuvraj along with Laxman to play the game, with perhaps Gambhir to open if Karthik is tired.... It would give a good idea of our reserve players and also give another chance for Rahul to get his form back.


India have to play positively (doesn't mean brainlessly) at Oval. We have thrown away 1-0 leads too many times in our history simply because we were afraid to be positive and we were just happy to sit on our lead. Ravi Shastri mentioned it in the post game yesterday and he also said it to Rahul, so at least they won't be unawares now even if they were previously. Great win for India but the job is only half done.
 

adharcric

International Coach
RP Singh has bowled quite well and has little to prove in the tour match. Let Sreesanth spearhead the attack and prove that he can put the nonsense aside and focus on his cricket. Put Ishant and Bose in there along with Powar and they can all compete for the final bowling spot. Does Yuvraj have a shot at ousting Laxman for the final test?
 

pasag

RTDAS
A few thoughts

a. first game this summer that Eng havent had the conditions go their way and they've been comprehensively stuffed

b. Eng's back up bowlers (let's face it, aside from Panesar, it's second string) by and large have shocking actions - Tremlett = 5 * dross plus one spectacular and it's all down to faulty technique

c. India are 1-0 up with Dravid, apart from a couple of glorious shots, looking completely out of form

d. Tendy's game has deteriorated markedly - struggles to avoid anything short and his dismissal today was completely embarassing for a guy of his record

e. Prior is no better than a stopper and wont last long as his batting is simply not that good

f. A few players are being exposed as minnow bashers

g. Take my hat off to Vaughan - guy has stood up and has shown his class

All in all, a riveting series because both sides have weaknesses but exciting players as well
Agree with nearly all of that.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
drop sree for Bose or Sharma, it really doesn't matter to me, esp. since it seems we will have clear weather at London and the Oval is not known for its swing.


practice game will be crucial. For me, India should play Sree, Ishant, Bose and RPS along with Powar as the spinner, Karthik to keep, Gambhir, Jaffar, Dravid and Yuvraj along with Laxman to play the game, with perhaps Gambhir to open if Karthik is tired.... It would give a good idea of our reserve players and also give another chance for Rahul to get his form back.


India have to play positively (doesn't mean brainlessly) at Oval. We have thrown away 1-0 leads too many times in our history simply because we were afraid to be positive and we were just happy to sit on our lead. Ravi Shastri mentioned it in the post game yesterday and he also said it to Rahul, so at least they won't be unawares now even if they were previously. Great win for India but the job is only half done.
Some good points there, as usual HBH. This wil be a real challenge for India - to get the balance right between attack and defence in the last test. I'll be interested to see how Dravid marshals the troops in that regard.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
England, seems to me, are going through what sides sometimes do as they are developing into a top side but aren't quite there yet - namely, they have real trouble when the blow torch is applied to them.
5-0 here when the challenge was put to them, and they seemed to respond pretty poorly when India had a lash at 'em.
It reminds me a bit of Australia in the early 90s when they "weren't quite there yet" in terms of dominance. They had few problems at home, and could beat most teams, but their record away wasn't as good as it should have been, esp. in the subcontinent, and they couldn't crack the Windies. Likewise, they'd occasionally suffer lapses with the bat which led to dramatic collapses.
I think there are a few excuses for England here - firstly, they have come up against a good side with a much improved seam attack - Zaheer in this match was real quality and the other 2 quickies helped, apart from some brain explosions. Second, a number of their bowlers are on the injured list, although frankly Hoggard and Flintoff are the two they really miss imo - Harmison they should not miss at all, and Jones is the great unknown because he's played so sporadically over the years. Thirdly, they were of course very unlucky with the weather at Lord's where they were a bee's proverbial from a comprehensive win.
Nevertheless, there are a few issues which concern me about England if they are to take that next step.
Firstly, there is a real fragility about their middle order against quality bowling (I know, that applies to most teams). But I think Nasser raised some good points after the test finished last night, namely that while we'd all like to go at 3.5 - 4 rpo, there are times in test cricket when you simply can't, times when you need to grind it out. There are some players in the England team who need to realise that, and as Nasser said, grind out a 5 hour ton instead of blazing away to a 3 hour ton. He suggested that there are some guys in that England team who may well be flat track bullies. That may be a bit harsh, then again maybe not. Contrast the approach of some of their players in the 1st innings this test with, say, a Mike Hussey who also likes to dominate, but when things require it, can knuckle down and grind things out as well as any one.
Secondly, their current attack is very raw for test level, although I accept that Sidebottom is a seasoned professional. Tremlett bowled well yesterday in particular, but really, it was frankly too little too late. Anderson? The jury's still out for mine - I know he was fantastic at Lord's but when the acid was applied, his efforts in this test were far closer to the ones he turned out in Australia last summer than they were in the 1st test v India. The commentators yesterday went on with all this psychobabble "It sends a message for the Oval" crap - they had 4 days to send a message, for goodness sake, and delivered a mere puff on day 5, when a fully loaded steam locomotive was neded much earlier.
Another similarity I have seen in this Test which England and Australia have, is that when things aren't going well, their on-field behaviour can deteriorate. One of the things which annoys many Aussie fans is the perception (or reality) that our team has trouble copping it when things are tough. I see that in England as well atm: I see it in Vaughan, in terms of his not disciplining his players and that spoilt brat look he sometimes gets on his face which is reminiscent of Ponting's; as well as some of the other players. I suspect that it arises from having most things go so well for so long, especially at home, without really being tested.
Thirdly, their mental state/ strength. The Jelly Bean fiasco raises an interesting point. What is the state of mind of a team which plays a joke like that? I accept that it's a bit of a giggle and all, but really where is your head at if you are sufficiently bored in the middle of a test match to play a game like that? Interesting that it was done to Zaheer, and not to any of Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Laxman or Dhoni. Mind you, based on recent photos I've seen, had Sehwag been playing, he'd have lapped the jelly beans up - literally.
Likewise the chest beating which both sides in this match went on with was, frankly, laughable. It's all well and good to talk the talk, but what sets players like S Waugh apart from those on display in this match, is that he walked the walk and backed it up - neither team on display in this series frankly has a great recent record in doing that when things get tough. So often players mistake the idea of being "hard" and playing hard cricket with sledging the living daylights out of each other. It isn't. Being hard means that when things are tough, you fight harder and bring all you can muster to get your job done. The really hard players, imo, don't waste their energy on sledging when things are really tough - they're too busy concerntrating on getting the job done for their team by scoring runs or taking wickets.
Interestingly, both Aus and England don't seem to display this characteristic as much when they are playing each other. Whether familiarity breeds respect or not, I don't know. Whilst there have been some incidents between the two countries, in general, both of the last Ashes series appear to have been played in reasonably good to very good spirits.
'Twas a good test to watch this last one, and well done to India. Both sides, however, as Bumble said last night, need to get the rubbish out of their games and get back to doing what they do best - playing hard, competitive cricket - in the sense that I have just described it.
Afridi for mine
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Some good points there, as usual HBH. This wil be a real challenge for India - to get the balance right between attack and defence in the last test. I'll be interested to see how Dravid marshals the troops in that regard.
yeah, thanks and BTW, I second that Burgey post for an Afridi.... Don't think even an English fan could have done such a great analysis on their side. :)
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
England, seems to me, are going through what sides sometimes do as they are developing into a top side but aren't quite there yet - namely, they have real trouble when the blow torch is applied to them.
5-0 here when the challenge was put to them, and they seemed to respond pretty poorly when India had a lash at 'em.
It reminds me a bit of Australia in the early 90s when they "weren't quite there yet" in terms of dominance. They had few problems at home, and could beat most teams, but their record away wasn't as good as it should have been, esp. in the subcontinent, and they couldn't crack the Windies. Likewise, they'd occasionally suffer lapses with the bat which led to dramatic collapses.
I think there are a few excuses for England here - firstly, they have come up against a good side with a much improved seam attack - Zaheer in this match was real quality and the other 2 quickies helped, apart from some brain explosions. Second, a number of their bowlers are on the injured list, although frankly Hoggard and Flintoff are the two they really miss imo - Harmison they should not miss at all, and Jones is the great unknown because he's played so sporadically over the years. Thirdly, they were of course very unlucky with the weather at Lord's where they were a bee's proverbial from a comprehensive win.
Nevertheless, there are a few issues which concern me about England if they are to take that next step.
Firstly, there is a real fragility about their middle order against quality bowling (I know, that applies to most teams). But I think Nasser raised some good points after the test finished last night, namely that while we'd all like to go at 3.5 - 4 rpo, there are times in test cricket when you simply can't, times when you need to grind it out. There are some players in the England team who need to realise that, and as Nasser said, grind out a 5 hour ton instead of blazing away to a 3 hour ton. He suggested that there are some guys in that England team who may well be flat track bullies. That may be a bit harsh, then again maybe not. Contrast the approach of some of their players in the 1st innings this test with, say, a Mike Hussey who also likes to dominate, but when things require it, can knuckle down and grind things out as well as any one.
Secondly, their current attack is very raw for test level, although I accept that Sidebottom is a seasoned professional. Tremlett bowled well yesterday in particular, but really, it was frankly too little too late. Anderson? The jury's still out for mine - I know he was fantastic at Lord's but when the acid was applied, his efforts in this test were far closer to the ones he turned out in Australia last summer than they were in the 1st test v India. The commentators yesterday went on with all this psychobabble "It sends a message for the Oval" crap - they had 4 days to send a message, for goodness sake, and delivered a mere puff on day 5, when a fully loaded steam locomotive was neded much earlier.
Another similarity I have seen in this Test which England and Australia have, is that when things aren't going well, their on-field behaviour can deteriorate. One of the things which annoys many Aussie fans is the perception (or reality) that our team has trouble copping it when things are tough. I see that in England as well atm: I see it in Vaughan, in terms of his not disciplining his players and that spoilt brat look he sometimes gets on his face which is reminiscent of Ponting's; as well as some of the other players. I suspect that it arises from having most things go so well for so long, especially at home, without really being tested.
Thirdly, their mental state/ strength. The Jelly Bean fiasco raises an interesting point. What is the state of mind of a team which plays a joke like that? I accept that it's a bit of a giggle and all, but really where is your head at if you are sufficiently bored in the middle of a test match to play a game like that? Interesting that it was done to Zaheer, and not to any of Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Laxman or Dhoni. Mind you, based on recent photos I've seen, had Sehwag been playing, he'd have lapped the jelly beans up - literally.
Likewise the chest beating which both sides in this match went on with was, frankly, laughable. It's all well and good to talk the talk, but what sets players like S Waugh apart from those on display in this match, is that he walked the walk and backed it up - neither team on display in this series frankly has a great recent record in doing that when things get tough. So often players mistake the idea of being "hard" and playing hard cricket with sledging the living daylights out of each other. It isn't. Being hard means that when things are tough, you fight harder and bring all you can muster to get your job done. The really hard players, imo, don't waste their energy on sledging when things are really tough - they're too busy concerntrating on getting the job done for their team by scoring runs or taking wickets.
Interestingly, both Aus and England don't seem to display this characteristic as much when they are playing each other. Whether familiarity breeds respect or not, I don't know. Whilst there have been some incidents between the two countries, in general, both of the last Ashes series appear to have been played in reasonably good to very good spirits.
'Twas a good test to watch this last one, and well done to India. Both sides, however, as Bumble said last night, need to get the rubbish out of their games and get back to doing what they do best - playing hard, competitive cricket - in the sense that I have just described it.
One reason why England and Australia don't sledge that much against each other but do it so much against sides like India maybe because they feel that these sides are more susceptible to sledging and mental disintegration more than England or Australia themselves. NOt sure if it is true, but it may be their line of thinking.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Second, a number of their bowlers are on the injured list, although frankly Hoggard and Flintoff are the two they really miss imo - Harmison they should not miss at all, and Jones is the great unknown because he's played so sporadically over the years....

Firstly, there is a real fragility about their middle order against quality bowling (I know, that applies to most teams). But I think Nasser raised some good points after the test finished last night, namely that while we'd all like to go at 3.5 - 4 rpo, there are times in test cricket when you simply can't, times when you need to grind it out. There are some players in the England team who need to realise that, and as Nasser said, grind out a 5 hour ton instead of blazing away to a 3 hour ton. He suggested that there are some guys in that England team who may well be flat track bullies. That may be a bit harsh, then again maybe not. Contrast the approach of some of their players in the 1st innings this test with, say, a Mike Hussey who also likes to dominate, but when things require it, can knuckle down and grind things out as well as any one.
I think that England is in a rebuilding phase here and where bowling is concerned, they have to look at at least one of Anderson and Tremlett in the future if not both. I like the lok of Anderson more but Tremlett is not bad either. It is a big positive for them that they have these two have performed at times (along with Sidebottom for that matter).

Batting wise, I don't think they are that bad right now. They have a weakness where Strauss is concerned and he has to sort it out or else England might have to look at some one else. Then, the bigger problem is Bell onwards. Once Bell comes into bat, they have no sustaining ability right now. Basically, open the window by bringing Bell in and they are all falling like a pack of cards. The good part is that out of the 6 right now, 4 are not bad at all - Cook, Vaughan, Pieterson and Collingwood. The application bit is a major problem right now but at least a core 4 is there. Once Flintoff comes back, it can look better for the side.

Let us look at the XI:

Cook
Strauss
Vaughan
KP
Collingwood
Bell
Prior

Flintoff

Harmison/Tremlett/Anderson
Hoggard
Panesar

I would like to see England play four bowlers and not 5 with a better keeper. If they can't find a better specialist number 6, maybe go back to Flintoff at 6 but first explore the option of the specialist number 6. The main problem is two batting positions right now (if I look with more than a short term perspective) but at least they have the ingredients of a very good side as it stands.
 
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Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
RP Singh has bowled quite well and has little to prove in the tour match. Let Sreesanth spearhead the attack and prove that he can put the nonsense aside and focus on his cricket. Put Ishant and Bose in there along with Powar and they can all compete for the final bowling spot. Does Yuvraj have a shot at ousting Laxman for the final test?
Yeah, I would not go for dropping Sreesanth just yet. If any thing, I would like to keep the winning combination for the crucial test as far as possible. If the pitch demands a different combination, like say a second spinner needed, only then will I seriously consider changing the line up. The equation might change if he has a terrible tour game but else, not really.
 

Turbinator

Cricketer Of The Year
Monty Panesar - "I couldn't manage to trouble any Indian batsman, they play spin too well."

These ones are from Cricinfo:

"For f***'s sake."
Non striker Michael Vaughan after Sreesanth bowled a head-high beamer at Kevin Pietersen. Sreesanth was later fined 50% of his match fee after earlier barging into Vaughan deliberately

"He's a batsman with a pair of gloves, maybe for no apparent reason."
David Lloyd doesn't give Mahendra Singh Dhoni's keeping a huge vote of confidence as he fumbles the ball :laugh:
 
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Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I think that England is in a rebuilding phase here and where bowling is concerned, they have to look at at least one of Anderson and Tremlett in the future if not both. I like the lok of Anderson more but Tremlett is not bad either. It is a big positive for them that they have these two have performed at times (along with Sidebottom for that matter).

Batting wise, I don't think they are that bad right now. They have a weakness where Strauss is concerned and he has to sort it out or else England might have to look at some one else. Then, the bigger problem is Bell onwards. Once Bell comes into bat, they have no sustaining ability right now. Basically, open the window by bringing Bell in and they are all falling like a pack of cards. The good part is that out of the 6 right now, 4 are not bad at all - Cook, Vaughan, Pieterson and Collingwood. The application bit is a major problem right now but at least a core 4 is there. Once Flintoff comes back, it can look better for the side.

Let us look at the XI:

Cook
Strauss
Vaughan
KP
Collingwood
Bell
Prior

Flintoff

Harmison/Tremlett/Anderson
Hoggard
Panesar

I would like to see England play four bowlers and not 5 with a better keeper. If they can't find a better specialist number 6, maybe go back to Flintoff at 6 but first explore the option of the specialist number 6. The main problem is two batting positions right now (if I look with more than a short term perspective) but at least they have the ingredients of a very good side as it stands.
Think you're right re. Flintoff preferably not batting at 6. I also wonder wheter Bell is coming in too low. Don't know whether his game is flexible enough to be able to change the tempo for that spot.

If the concern remains re Strauss, perhaps Vaughan to open again, Bell to 3 with a specialist at 6, Flintoff at & then the keeper and bowlers.

Re. the keeping, I don't think either Prior or Dhoni are exactly classical keepers, but these days it probably doesn't matter as much as it used to. The real test for Prior will come on spinning decks with variable bounce. As for standing back, I've noticed that he does lunge a lot rather than move his feet. Probably something he can work on over time.
 

open365

International Vice-Captain
Think you're right re. Flintoff preferably not batting at 6. I also wonder wheter Bell is coming in too low. Don't know whether his game is flexible enough to be able to change the tempo for that spot.

If the concern remains re Strauss, perhaps Vaughan to open again, Bell to 3 with a specialist at 6, Flintoff at & then the keeper and bowlers.

Re. the keeping, I don't think either Prior or Dhoni are exactly classical keepers, but these days it probably doesn't matter as much as it used to. The real test for Prior will come on spinning decks with variable bounce. As for standing back, I've noticed that he does lunge a lot rather than move his feet. Probably something he can work on over time.
Mmm, Bell has played really well at 6 so far for England, but i suppose he has a shorter tail to bat with normaly.

I think he's good at 6 tbh, with Flintoff hopefully 7 and Prior 8 in the future.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Bell has an excellent record at number 6 for England, true...

6th position 9 15 4 631 119 109* 106* 57.36 4 1 1

However, if we take just his stats this year, he hasn't been doing too well...

6th position 5 8 1 256 109* 97 31 36.57 1 1 1
7th position 2 2 0 31 20 11 - 15.50 0 0 0

Only 1 not out in the above means that it is not just a problem of batting with the tail... he is getting out too much for comfort.

Bell's over all career record at number 3:

3rd position 9 18 0 634 92 87 71 35.22 0 7 2

Again, not impressive.

If Strauss doesn't perform, getting Vaughan to open would be the way to go. However, I am not sure what to do regarding Bell. If he continues to fail, I think trying him at 3 which Burgey suggested is a good idea given that you wouldn't want two new players right into your batting line up and see how it goes from there.

Re: Classical keepers... I think that the runs aspect of keepers in tests is over rated. If some one averages 35 in tests while another averages 25, the difference is 20 runs in terms of batting runs for the whole game. However, if the keeper who averages 35 misses a few chances which the better keeper would have taken, there is always the danger of giving away any where between 20-100 runs at least through the match. So I am always in favour of the better keeper still and would only want to consider a better batsman if the difference of batting averages is bigger and difference of keeping skills smaller - it is subjective but I do feel that after the Flower, Gilchrist impact, teams too many teams are going down the road which is wrong. In one day cricket, keepers aren't that important but in tests, they still have a part to play.
 
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Salamuddin

International Debutant
I'm quite amused by the number iof English supoorters bemoaning their lack of luck in this test.

The wicket on the first day may have been conducive to seamers but IMO had England stuck in there they could and should have ground out another 100 runs.They was stiull plenty of juice in the wicket when England came out to bowl but their seamers pitched in shorter than the Indians did ....also I though the Indians showed a lot more application when they batted.

So I don't think England were unlucky in the grand scheme of things....India p[layed better cricket and hopefully they can win or draw at the Oval . Would love to see the reaction from Scaly Piscine and my pro-Engliswh Aussie friend Swervy then :laugh:
 

open365

International Vice-Captain
Well tbf in the 'grand' scheme of things the series should be 1-1 with the 3rd test as the decider.

Nothin to complain about in this test though, we were outplayed and deserved to lose.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
If someone averages another 10 with the bat down the order tho that often means there are bigger partnerships at the end, not just simply the batsman getting another 10 runs but others hanging around with them as well (and extras accumulating too). So it's pretty complex to quantify extra batting average down the order.

Personally I think Prior's keeping generally gives away a boundary or two an innings anyway because his poor footwork means he covers a smaller area.
 

shehanwije

School Boy/Girl Captain
I'm quite amused by the number iof English supoorters bemoaning their lack of luck in this test.

India p[layed better cricket and hopefully they can win or draw at the Oval . :
One statistic highlights the diff between the two teams in the first dig - the number of balls that the Indian top order left alone vs the same for Eng bastmen as flashed up in the telecast on Sky.

From an independent viewpoint, the Indians def. applied themselves better in similar bowling conditions when they batted and in the end this was the key difference in the test (both teams bowled equally well).

I was frankly surprised to hear Vaughan moan that if they made another 100 or more then it may have been a different case - The " sun does rise in the east" everytime....so why state the obvious hypothetical? Of course if you make more runs its going to be different in any game, at any level.

Eng are better off focussing on the cricket in the middle, as they do have some fine players...and turn around their form in the 3rd Test.
 
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silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Sreesanth, who has an interesting habit of writing letters to God before every game....
"Yes, I did write a letter to God before the fourth day of the Test. I wrote in that, 'Tomorrow I will win the Test match for my country. I will be the one, God please help me.' But it didn't go that way. Well, maybe I didn't write my name in the end and God thought it came from Zaheer bhai,"
last two nights of the Test match slept clutching my India cap thinking it will get me luck," he said.

Is it me or is this lad a few jelly beans short of a full pack?
 

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