Mohd Yousuf vs Rahul Dravid In ODI's

[silentstriker]

I read it as you you chose only the parts that make Dravid look better, and ignored the rest. I thought that's what Beleg meant by 'selective analysis'.

 

[Manee]

I'm hardly going to pick pieces which disprove my point because that would weaken my point. All the facets about Yousuf being changed since 2005 and having superior hundred records I have tried to address.

 

[gunner]

Yousuf has had average, hundred and fifty count boosted by playing Bangladesh, Kenya and Zimbabwe, matches in which, usually, the result does not come into the equation. Obviously Bangladesh are more of a threat but werent when he scored so many runs against them. Dravid on top, Yousuf on bottom.

                       1    1   0    15  15    -    -   15.00   0   0   0
v Kenya               11    9   4   358 104*  68*  49   71.60   1   1   0

v Zimbabwe            32   27   3   885  85   84   72*  36.87   0   8   0
                      20   18   6   810 141* 100*  88   67.50   2   6   1

v Bangladesh          10    7   1   197  60   53   42*  32.83   0   2   0
                      11   10   3   633 112* 106   94*  90.42   2   4   0

Since is conversion in 2005, Yousuf has been a test run machine, but people have missed how Dravid has outperformed him overrall in the last four years.

2004                  31   28   2  1025 104   99   84   39.42   1  10   2
                      27   25   4   768 107*  88*  88   36.57   1   4   2
2005                  30   30   7  1092 104  103*  86   47.47   2   9   2
                      26   25   2   885 105   72   71   38.47   1   8   1
2006                  27   27   1   919 105   92   69   35.34   1   8   2
                      21   19   3   627  83*  71   67   39.18   0   5   0
2007                  13   11   3   427  78   66   60   53.37   0   5   0
                      14   14   1   473 101*  79   66   36.38   1   3   0

Dravid seems to be equal in career batting averages with runs against the better teams, he is also in better form than Yousuf. There is yet another dimention though. 20s and 30s don't win or have much of an impact on 50 over games, 50s and 100s are what counts.

In a ratio per innings for fifties and hundreds it goes.

Dravid: 2.92 innings per fifty or hundred
Yousuf: 3.47 innings per fifty or hundred.

In conclusion, I pick Dravid because he scores more runs against the good teams, better recent form, and his better ratio of innings per fifty or hundred.

so you're saying its yousuf's fault he has nearly asmuch runs as dravid against zimbabwe in just ver half the matches?

v Zimbabwe 32 27 3 885 85 84 72* 36.87 0 8 0
20 18 6 810 141* 100* 88 67.50 2 6 1

v Bangladesh 10 7 1 197 60 53 42* 32.83 0 2 0
11 10 3 633 112* 106 94* 90.42 2 4 0

simple fact is

yuosuf performed against zimbabwe and bangladesh
while dravid didnt

and also dont forget dravid scored most of his runs against india when warne,mcgrath werent playing and aussies had to use 3rd rate attacks

 

[silentstriker]

For me, it's iffy. I chose Dravid as IMO he is more reliable, but ODI batting is a weird thing and I don't necessarily think the better batsman overall (which is Dravid) does better in this format.

Dravid has become a very good ODI batsman, but I'd probably want to change to Yousuf for ODI.

 

[Manee]

so you're saying its yousuf's fault he has nearly asmuch runs as dravid against zimbabwe in just ver half the matches?

v Zimbabwe 32 27 3 885 85 84 72* 36.87 0 8 0
20 18 6 810 141* 100* 88 67.50 2 6 1

v Bangladesh 10 7 1 197 60 53 42* 32.83 0 2 0
11 10 3 633 112* 106 94* 90.42 2 4 0

simple fact is

yuosuf performed against zimbabwe and bangladesh
while dravid didnt

Yes, but runs against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh are not as valuable (and needed) as runs against other test playing teams so that is where that point came from.

 

[Richard]

so you're saying its yousuf's fault he has nearly asmuch runs as dravid against zimbabwe in just ver half the matches?

v Zimbabwe 32 27 3 885 85 84 72* 36.87 0 8 0
20 18 6 810 141* 100* 88 67.50 2 6 1

v Bangladesh 10 7 1 197 60 53 42* 32.83 0 2 0
11 10 3 633 112* 106 94* 90.42 2 4 0

simple fact is

yuosuf performed against zimbabwe and bangladesh
while dravid didnt

and also dont forget dravid scored most of his runs against india when warne,mcgrath werent playing and aussies had to use 3rd rate attacks

What I'm saying is that performance against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe isn't remotely relevant to rating a player in ODIs - because games involving those two should not be classed as ODIs.

 

[Richard]

I read it as you you chose only the parts that make Dravid look better, and ignored the rest. I thought that's what Beleg meant by 'selective analysis'.

Perhaps he looked at the parts and based his judgement that Dravid was better on that?

 

[gunner]

What I'm saying is that performance against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe isn't remotely relevant to rating a player in ODIs - because games involving those two should not be classed as ODIs.

in those days zimbabwe was quite a good team you know

had the flowers,streak,blignaut,ireland and a whole host of other very good bowlers in a team which gave india as good as it got in alot of their matches in those days

 

[Richard]

in those days zimbabwe was quite a good team you know

had the flowers,streak,blignaut,ireland and a whole host of other very good bowlers in a team which gave india as good as it got in alot of their matches in those days

Blignaut and Ireland are NOT good bowlers.

Zimbabwe ceased to be a ODI-standard side in April 2003. Yes, Yousuf scored some worthwhile runs against them before then and those should be considered, but anything since after WC2003 - forget it.

 

[sohummisra]

Zimbabwe were a decent team in the late 90's and the early 2000's. With bowlers like Streak and Olonga (and that other guy who troubled India once whose name eludes me) followed up by Paul Strang and helpful part-timers like Grant Flower and Douglas Marillier, their bowling wasn't really strong but it was certainly a lot better than it is today.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Henry Olonga was never a good bowler.

 

[sohummisra]

Henry Olonga was never a good bowler.

I think that's a little unfair. At 30, he would still have been playing cricket for Zimbabwe if it wasn't for the political issues. He also had a pretty short career and I think he showed plenty of promise.

And the other bowler was Douglas Hondo. Remember when he terrorized India taking plenty of top order wickets and I believe we had to be rescued by Yuvi and Kaif. Me memory gets though.

 

[Richard]

Henry Olonga was never a good bowler.

Yes, he was. Sadly, when he was bad he was truly awful. That tended to almost completely hide his good performances - which were certainly not unheard-of.

He also never had the fortune to work with top bowling-coaches - had someone been able to cut down on his no-balling and be able to get him playing some real good, hard First-Class cricket (ie in England) I reckon he might well have turned-out to be a serious international bowler.

He was one of the players whose loss consigned Zimbabwe to no-longer-international-class - along with A Flower, G Whittall, Campbell, plus earlier Goodwin and Johnson.

 

[gunner]

Blignaut and Ireland are NOT good bowlers.

Zimbabwe ceased to be a ODI-standard side in April 2003. Yes, Yousuf scored some worthwhile runs against them before then and those should be considered, but anything since after WC2003 - forget it.

Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0

unfiltered           242  229  32  8081 141* 129  125   41.02  12  54  15
filtered               5    5   1    96  61*  17   14   24.00   0   1   0

this is after march 2003

 

[Richard]

Haha. Now there's interesting... never noticed that. Had always thought he'd cashed-in against them.

Fair enough, then, most of his Zimbabwe runs count.

 

[gunner]

plus this is the hundreds list

                     For  100s   Mts  Aus Eng RSA  WI  NZ Ind Pak  SL Zim Ban Oth
SR Tendulkar         Ind    41   384    7   1   3   4   4   -   5   7   5   0   5
ST Jayasuriya        SL     25   395    2   4   0   1   5   5   3   -   1   3   1
RT Ponting           Aus    23   280    -   3   2   1   4   4   1   4   1   1   2
SC Ganguly           Ind    22   291    1   1   3   0   3   -   2   4   3   1   4
Saeed Anwar          Pak    20   247    1   0   0   2   4   4   -   7   2   0   0
BC Lara              WI     19   299    3   1   3   -   2   0   5   2   1   1   1
ME Waugh             Aus    18   244    -   1   2   3   3   3   1   1   3   0   1
DL Haynes            WI     17   238    6   2   0   -   2   2   4   1   0   -   -
HH Gibbs             RSA    16   208    2   2   -   4   1   2   1   1   1   1   1
NJ Astle             NZ     16   223    1   2   1   1   -   5   2   0   3   0   1
CH Gayle             WI     15   168    0   2   3   -   0   4   1   0   2   1   2
JH Kallis            RSA    15   257    1   1   -   3   3   1   1   3   1   0   1
AC Gilchrist         Aus    15   268    -   2   2   0   2   1   1   5   1   0   1
G Kirsten            RSA    13   185    2   1   -   0   2   4   2   0   0   0   2
ME Trescothick       Eng    12   123    1   -   1   2   0   2   2   1   1   1   1
[B]Mohammad Yousuf      Pak    12   242    1   0   1   2   1   1   -   2   2   2   0
R Dravid             Ind    12   315    0   0   0   3   2   -   2   3   0   0   2[/B]

Yousuf has a century against every test playing nation apart from england

 

[Manee]

Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0

unfiltered           242  229  32  8081 141* 129  125   41.02  12  54  15
filtered               5    5   1    96  61*  17   14   24.00   0   1   0

this is after march 2003

Hmmm...convincing but you seemed to canily miss something, at about the time the decline starts.

Pakistan in Zimbabwe, 2002/03 [Series]
               Pak     5    4   3   405 141* 100*  88  405.00   2   2   0
Cherry Blossom Sharjah Cup (Ken/Pak/SL/Zim) in U.A.E., 2002/03 [Tournament]
               Pak     2    2   1    78  61*  17    -   78.00   0   1   0

 

[Richard]

Not sure what you're saying there, TBH. He had one pretty extraordinary series in Zimbabwe in 2002\03 (as did Salim Elahi), but IMO those games were still worthy of being counted as ODIs. Unlike those in the CB Cup and onwards.

 

[Sanz]

and also dont forget dravid scored most of his runs against india when warne,mcgrath werent playing and aussies had to use 3rd rate attacks

Dravid has scored 8 50s against Australia and all of them have come against pretty good attacks and Mcgrath was part of 6 of those attacks.
56 (Mcgrath & Gillespie)
60, 63, 52 (Mcgrath & Lee)
65 (Mcgrath, Lee, Warne)
80 (Mcgrath, Warne, Fleming)
59 (Bracken, Bichel)
74(Gillespie, Lee)


Please dont post that kind of bull**** unless you are going to back it up.

 

[Manee]

I guess it was before the mass exodus. But if we are being honest here, trying to differentiate those two over stats will get you nowhere in the end. Dravid is better if you are in trouble but Yousuf brings bigger runs (centuries) more often.

It really depends what you are looking for. If you want to demolish a team, pick Yousuf, if you wish to have a backbone in an attractive abdomen of batsman, pick Dravid.