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Garry Sobers-A master of black magic?

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Don Bradman is definitely undisputed greatest cricketer ever(although there are some idiots like Sambit Pal & others who say Gary"I could bowl every style capily" is the greatest cricketer of alltime which is highly laughable because Sobers doesn't even come close to The Don) but being a great player of a particular sport neither makes u an "expert" nor any authority to decide who is good & who's bad.If u think good or great players are better judges & know more about the sport ten what would u say about Inzamam & some of the other players(the names of whom I don't want to mension) who hardly know anything even about some chief rules of cricket & rate crap players very highly & consider them "trump cards" despite having proven better players in the team.

Anyway, I would prefer to judge players on properly analyzed stats rather than on the opinion of X person(whoever he or she might be) about an X player.

I've always said that Sobers is one of the greatest batsmen ever(would easily make top 10 abtsmen of alltime,if not 5) & might make alltime XIs of many people on his batting alone but I just don't think He was a better allrounder than Imran Khan,Ian Botham & Keith Miller.
And I think Don Bradman would know more abt cricket and cricketers than u do. ;)




Seriously, it is not one or two guys who say that. So many guys connected to cricket have all watched all these players in question and have said that Sobers was the best all rounder ever. If u guys think u know more just because u have seen a few numbers..........................
 
Damn, that would have been in with a shout for the Afridi if I hadn't ignored this thread last week (thanks to some of the crap opinions floating around here). :@
adharcric,yes your opinions are more sacred than the words of Bible,Geeta & Quran & whoever disagrees is a disciple of Satan & should be hanged .
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
"There are so many batsmen who are close to being the same mark. If you asked me who is the best, I'd start off by saying, well, there's George Headley, Everton Weekes, Barry Richards, Graham Pollock, Wally Hammond, Sir Jack Hobbs, Sir Len Hutton, Denis Compton ... you could go on with a list of them. They're all roughly the same skill, same ability. You wouldn't like to pick the best of them. But I could certainly say who was the best cricketer I saw, the best all rounder, and that was Gary Sobers. I think he was unquestionably the best cricketer I set eyes on."

That quote is from someone who played against Jack Hobbs (presumably he watched cricketers even before that), watched cricketers and appreciated them for as recently as with Lara and Tendulkar, played a bit of international cricket himself - enough to be knighted for his game. Maybe we should asuume he knew a bit about cricket and cricketers and knew what he was talking about.

PS: and he wasn't West Indian to be speaking highly of Sir Garfield.
And who was this person? Hobbs himself died in 63, before Khan or Sachin or Lara were born.

EDIT: Bradman? So? Bradman thought O'Reilly was the greatest spinner of all time too. Not saying he couldn't be but I am pretty sure that opinion would be challenged and not swallowed just because Bradman had said it.

I mean if you reckon Pele is the greatest football player ever you wouldn't want to quote him, he can be a bit of a dolt when it comes to his opinions.

I think the issue is whether people are willing to question what had been said in regards to Sobers. Sobers in his time was a novelty to an extent, and I'm sure that attracted attention and praise for all. But the era after, you had some of the greatest all-rounders in the game: Dev, Botham and Imran - if you want add Hadlee there too. And Imran is the best out of that bunch. When you look at their careers in stats (not talking about 1-2 run differences here) then it is pretty HARD to argue against Imran without hearsay. As I said before, this isn't as close as a Lillee V Marshall argument here, most of the argument is "who is the least worst here".
 
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steve132

U19 Debutant
At this stage in the debate I doubt very much whether any minds are likely to be changed by argument. I remain, however, astonished at the hubris displayed by those who question Sobers' credentials. I saw the man play many times, and consider him to be the greatest ever all-rounder in the history of the game. I am humble enough to admit that my judgment may be wrong. The problem, however, is that virtually all of the cricketers and journalists who saw Sobers said the same thing. Some of them were old enough to evaluate the players of one or two generations preceding Sobers, including all-rounders such as Wilfred Rhodes, Frank Woolley and Keith Miller. Others saw Imran, Botham, Kapil and Procter from the next generation, and continue to rank Sobers ahead of all other contenders.

We are not talking about one or two isolated individuals here. In my original post I listed a few of them – men such as John Arlott, Trevor Bailey, Bishan Bedi, Geoff Boycott, Don Bradman, Greg Chappell, Ian Chappell, Dennis Compton, Colin Cowdrey, Jack Fingleton, Wes Hall, Ray Illingworth, Alan Knott, Clive Lloyd, Christopher Martin-Jenkins, Barry Richards, John Snow, E.W. Swanton, Clyde Walcott, Everton Weekes and John Woodcock. I could name many others, but this list is imposing enough as it stands.

The only people who insist that Sobers was a mediocre bowler appear not to have seen him play and have no obvious credentials for making such a judgment.

I have three questions for them:

1. Can you name a single cricketer or journalist of distinction who saw Sobers play and agrees with your view?

2. Can you tell us what special insight you possess that is denied to the rest of us – including virtually all the cricketers and journalists who saw him?

3. Are you at least prepared to consider the possibility that maybe – just maybe -your criteria rather than the unanimous view of knowledgeable observers might be wrong?
 
1. Can you name a single cricketer or journalist of distinction who saw Sobers play and agrees with your view?

2. Can you tell us what special insight you possess that is denied to the rest of us – including virtually all the cricketers and journalists who saw him?

3. Are you at least prepared to consider the possibility that maybe – just maybe -your criteria rather than the unanimous view of knowledgeable observers might be wrong?
1.The problems is that most of people who saw Sobers play didn't watch Imran play at his peak.People consider those to be best whom they saw them play.An X person would say that X bowler than all others (based on he watched him play throught his career).After 30 or 40 years another person Y can make the same statement about another person.For this reason,as I've said many times before,I prefer to judge quality of players through properly analyzed stats rather than the opinion of different person(whoever they might be).People can be biased ,stats can't.So, properly analyzed stats are more reliable than opinion of different persons.

2.The point of viewof most people is based on the opinion of different people while mine is based purely on stats.

3.Of course, I'm a human & no authority in this matter,so I might be wrong & they all might be right.
 
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adharcric

International Coach
1.The problems is that most of people who saw Sobers play didn't watch Imran play at his peak.People consider those to be best whom they saw them play.An X person would say that X bowler than all others (based on he watched him play throught his career).After 30 or 40 years another person Y can make the same statement about another person.For this reason,as I've said many times before,I prefer to judge quality of players through properly analyzed stats rather than the opinion of different person(whoever they might be).People can be biased ,stats can't.So, properly analyzed stats are more reliable than opinion of different persons.

2.The point of viewof most people is based on the opinion of different people while mine is based purely on stats.

3.Of course, I'm a human & no authority in this matter,so I might be wrog & they all might be right.
1. Stats don't tell the whole story.
2. Stats don't tell the whole story.
3. Spot on.
 
Stats don't tell the whole story.
Thats why I said properly analyzed stats are most reliable(not ideal) way of judging the quality of different.So,tats despite not being the most ideal way of judging players,are many times more reliable than opinion of an X person about an X player.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Thats why I said properly analyzed stats are most reliable(not ideal) way of judging the quality of different.So,tats despite not being the most ideal way of judging players,are many times more reliable than opinion of an X person about an X player.
nope, the best way to rate a player still remains "having seen him and his contemporaries play LIVE and then judge them". Something I am sure you guys haven't. By numbers, Murali is not just better than WArne, he is MUCH better than WArne.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
And who was this person? Hobbs himself died in 63, before Khan or Sachin or Lara were born.

EDIT: Bradman? So? Bradman thought O'Reilly was the greatest spinner of all time too. Not saying he couldn't be but I am pretty sure that opinion would be challenged and not swallowed just because Bradman had said it.

I mean if you reckon Pele is the greatest football player ever you wouldn't want to quote him, he can be a bit of a dolt when it comes to his opinions.

I think the issue is whether people are willing to question what had been said in regards to Sobers. Sobers in his time was a novelty to an extent, and I'm sure that attracted attention and praise for all. But the era after, you had some of the greatest all-rounders in the game: Dev, Botham and Imran - if you want add Hadlee there too. And Imran is the best out of that bunch. When you look at their careers in stats (not talking about 1-2 run differences here) then it is pretty HARD to argue against Imran without hearsay. As I said before, this isn't as close as a Lillee V Marshall argument here, most of the argument is "who is the least worst here".
The point is, Kazo, I think it is PRETTY hard for you to say that Sobers (whose bowling average was 27 at his peak, by your own stats) numbers were not good IN THAT ERA. Maybe in another era, his bowling would have been good enough to come down by 2-3 points. Also, he always bowled the variety that the pitch did not support, so that his side could be loaded with specialists of the variety that the pitch did support. No stats can account for these things. And Sobers average of 27 is only two points off Warney, whom u rate to be the greatest bowler ever.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Yet Warne will always be superior IMO, even though I hold statistics in very high regard.
MY point exactly. The reason u think so is because u have watched both of them bowl and u have formed a judgement that goes beyond stats. Also, it is because u think that stats don't show how good WArney was. Why is that it can be true for Warney and not for Sobers, I would LOVE to know.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
MY point exactly. The reason u think so is because u have watched both of them bowl and u have formed a judgement that goes beyond stats. Also, it is because u think that stats don't show how good WArney was. Why is that it can be true for Warney and not for Sobers, I would LOVE to know.
Certainly it's not the case with Sobers IMO, I rate him as the greatest all-rounder ever even though the stats would clearly disagree with me. I haven't seen him play so my opinion probably doesn't carry much weight but from what I have read about him, there is no doubt in my mind.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Thats why I said properly analyzed stats are most reliable(not ideal) way of judging the quality of different.
I'll go with the people who actually saw the players rather than any messed around with stats.

And from that list provided by steve that you questioned, how many didn't see Imran at his prime - I can't see any of them who wouldn't have done.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
The point is, Kazo, I think it is PRETTY hard for you to say that Sobers (whose bowling average was 27 at his peak, by your own stats) numbers were not good IN THAT ERA. Maybe in another era, his bowling would have been good enough to come down by 2-3 points. Also, he always bowled the variety that the pitch did not support, so that his side could be loaded with specialists of the variety that the pitch did support. No stats can account for these things. And Sobers average of 27 is only two points off Warney, whom u rate to be the greatest bowler ever.
But 27 is his peak mate and it didn't last near as long as Imran's batting peak of 51-53. Sobers also averaged highly in long parts of his career and finished with a career average of 34. Averages aside, look at his poor strike rate, 96 I think? Low 4-fers and 5-fers. He was not a wicket taking bowler so he has no right to compare to a Warne. It is that simple.

I agree with the point of view that stats don't tell the whole story, because if you break down Warne's stats you can see why he is a tick or two below in some regards. But when you take them into more broad reasonings you can easily justify his greatness - also along with those that saw him bowl.

The difference with Sobers is that his only mitigating factor is the opinions of others. I mean two of Warne's disadvantages was playing so many games away and having to compete with McGrath for wickets. What did Sobers have? That's the question. Because on stats, he really isn't even close for me - not saying everyone - to say he was a good bowler. Because IMO with those figures he can't be. As I said, even Steve Waugh has similar figures, but he just didn't bowl as often as Sobers.

As aforesaid, the difference in stats isn't small like a Murali V Warne or a Lillee V Marshall, it is quite clear in this case. So those opinions aren't going to sway me THAT much.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I'll go with the people who actually saw the players rather than any messed around with stats.
Yet you yourself have shown why Sobers' stats need to be "messed around" with to get the truer picture of his bowling ability...
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
I hate all the rubbishing that stats get. Stats are an important part of the game, probably the most important part. Just because people can't analyze them properly, and in the right context, doesn't mean they are worthless.

If you say X averaged 20 in 1970, and Y averaged 22 in 1990, therefore X is a superior bowler...then it's not the stats that are misleading...it's you who is too lazy to go deeper. Same as Warne vs. Murali. You can't just assume that stats are comparable that way, even though both played in the same era. The only way you can compare stats directly like that is if they played the same number of matches at the same venues at the same time. Look deeper and don't just quote (he averaged 22, so there!). I must admit, I am guilty of this too sometimes, but its still a futile way of looking at things.
 
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