Fleming steps down as OD captain

[Francis]

Why? I think his comment was pretty fair...

Yeah screw you Dan... don't know what's happened to you lately!

And for the record, yes I did see Martin Crowe play.

 

[Flem274*]

Probably a good idea to have Fleming there for a year or so with Vettori as captain, where Vettori can learn from him, ask him for advice on the field etc. England should probably have been doing that with Vaughan and it's something you see in sport alot more often these days as opposed to the old conservative view that you have a captain and he retires. This has the clear advantage of ensuring a smooth transition into the next era so to speak, although it's not that necessary with Vettori who is a good captain in his own right (from what I've seen).

We have got quite a few guys with leadership qualities. I think it's good for the team. Dan would definitely be good at leading by example and inspiring his teammates on. Peter Fulton really reminds me of Fleming and he is another possible leader. Same goes for Oram however he is injured too much and may become a distraction when not around like Vaughan was during the ashes IMO.

 

[SJS]

I am shocked.

Easily one of the better captains one has seen.

I have not read the details of the decision but if it is because of the World Cup semifinal defeat, I am even more shocked.

I might go so far as to think it is kind of dereliction of duty in a way. I know these are strong words and he has done nothing in his career to deserve such a comment but New Zealand cricket needs him and as captain more than anything else. He should not withdraw from that unless there are non-cricketing reasons which may well be the case.

 

[Flem274*]

I am shocked.

Easily one of the better captains one has seen.

I have not read the details of the decision but if it is because of the World Cup semifinal defeat, I am even more shocked.

I might go so far as to think it is kind of dereliction of duty in a way. I know these are strong words and he has done nothing in his career to deserve such a comment but New Zealand cricket needs him and as captain more than anything else. He should not withdraw from that unless there are non-cricketing reasons which may well be the case.

Try telling that to the early morning talkback callers

They certainly wanted him gone.

 

[SJS]

Try telling that to the early morning talkback callers

They certainly wanted him gone.

Oh we have hundreds of millions of such guys in India. But selecting a captain of an international team is not an "Indian (or NZL) Icon" show and the sooner everyone understood that the better.

In India we have realised that five selectors are too many. Someone nneds to realise that a billion are simply tooooooooo many

 

[Flem274*]

Oh we have hundreds of millions of such guys in India. But selecting a captain of an international team is not an "Indian (or NZL) Icon" show and the sooner everyone understood that the better.

In India we have realised that five selectors are too many. Someone nneds to realise that a billion are simply tooooooooo many

I agree with you, Fleming is our man (well was) and he should be in the side at No.4 his best position. I'm not sure how many selectors we have though i know Glen Turner, Dion Nash and John Bracewell are selectors. We have had some wierd selections though like Fulton opening in tests and Papps being left on the outer. Our persistence with Mason, Franklin and Gillespie is also puzzling. Gillespie at third seamer? i was always under the impression he was a new ball bowler.

I'm no expert on indian cricket but i guess you guys have been getting some interesting selections too?

 

[pasag]

Try telling that to the early morning talkback callers

They certainly wanted him gone.

They want him gone whenever NZ lose anything from what posters here say. Vettori will probably get the same treatment I'd imagine.

 

[Prince EWS]

They want him gone whenever NZ lose anything from what posters here say. Vettori will probably get the same treatment I'd imagine.

Yeah, some of the NZ posters here just seem to take every loss as a chance to say "Sack Fleming and Bracewell, drop Vettori and Franklin." Gets a bit tiring really. I guess this will offer up a change at least - we'll probably see "Sack Vettori and Bracewell, drop Fleming and Franklin" for the next year or so.

 

[Flem274*]

Yeah, some of the NZ posters here just seem to take every loss as a chance to say "Sack Fleming and Bracewell, drop Vettori and Franklin." Gets a bit tiring really. I guess this will offer up a change at least - we'll probably see "Sack Vettori and Bracewell, drop Fleming and Franklin" for the next year or so.

The posters on here are pretty good for what I've seen. (i have been reading the forum since late last year). It's the meathead rugby fans that think they know everything calling up the meathead talkback hosts (Darcy Watergrave, Kent Johns are quite good though. I especially enjoy Darcy as he likes Cricket and Motorsport just like me ). The meatheads should be banned from talking cricket IMO.

 

[honestbharani]

I do think he is a tad over rated, both as player and as captain, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he has been one of the better players and captains for New Zealand and over a long period of time. While his tactcis at times push the spirit of the game, they do always give his team a better shot at winning a match or series. I think New Zealand will gladly trade a couple of their better players right now to have someone as good as him as captain again.

 

[_Ed_]

While his tactcis at times push the spirit of the game

I'd like some examples of this.

 

[Francis]

I'd like some examples of this.

One that springs to mind was in the VB series in Australia a few years ago. Australia, South Africa and New Zealand were participating in the series. New Zealand were playing South Africa and South Africa were very much on top and likely to win. Rather than asking his players to try and pull off a mircale victory, he told them not to pass a certain amount of runs so South Africa could get the bonus point - which they did. Thus ending Australia's chances of making the final.

I can understand not wanting to play Australia, but to deliberately tank a game seems against the spirit of the game. I'm against the bonus point system for that reason. Asking your players not to try and win a game, to tank it so it eliminates Australia... it just seems against the spirit of the game not to ask them to play their best, not to play with pride and not to try and win the game. The crowd got bored and booed as well, as it produced some dull cricket.

 

[Francis]

Of course there was also that time when NZ were 4-0 down in South Africa and playing the 5th game. A massive thunder storm loomed on the horizon, and with 15 overs bowled, Fleming started to ever so deliberately stall the game and continually change his field positions. They went off at the 19th overs, so Fleming's tactics had worked... thankfully it passed and SA won. But I'd never seen a captain take so long to set a field.

 

[Francis]

Then there was that time he showed no remorse for Murali getting run-out while he went to congratulate Sanga on making a century... however, Murali was pretty silly to do what he did. That's up for debate that one.

 

[Flem274*]

One that springs to mind was in the VB series in Australia a few years ago. Australia, South Africa and New Zealand were participating in the series. New Zealand were playing South Africa and South Africa were very much on top and likely to win. Rather than asking his players to try and pull off a mircale victory, he told them not to pass a certain amount of runs so South Africa could get the bonus point - which they did. Thus ending Australia's chances of making the final.

I can understand not wanting to play Australia, but to deliberately tank a game seems against the spirit of the game. I'm against the bonus point system for that reason. Asking your players not to try and win a game, to tank it so it eliminates Australia... it just seems against the spirit of the game not to ask them to play their best, not to play with pride and not to try and win the game. The crowd got bored and booed as well, as it produced some dull cricket.

But it did the job. The way Fleming puts it in his book which i'm reading NZ were beating AUS but losing to SA. SA were beating NZ but losing to AUS. AUS were beating SA but losing to us. Now I cannot remember exact details but we were on track to finish equal on points with AUS and SA. A glitch in the rules meant the team with the best head to head went throgh or something like that. The fact is, if we wanted a place in the final, we had to lose the game without getting the bonus point for a narrow loss. I'll look it up sometime if you want it explained better. Personally I have no problem with a captain doing something borderline to give his team the advantage. It was well within the rules, just like AUS at the 1999 WC go slow tactic.

The bonus point system was flawed however I'm pretty sure thats been changed now. Most captains wouldn't think twice about exploiting loopholes I'm sure.

 

[Flem274*]

Then there was that time he showed no remorse for Murali getting run-out while he went to congratulate Sanga on making a century... however, Murali was pretty silly to do what he did. That's up for debate that one.

Are you out to bash Fleming? Seriously, youre going a little over the top here. Murali was out of his ground and McCullum ran him out. Simple. Just because someone scored a century doesn't mean you have the right to slack off. Where's Fiery? I'm sure he's gonna get stuck in here.

 

[Francis]

That's why I posted, to sort of agree with honestB...

While his tactcis at times push the spirit of the game, they do always give his team a better shot at winning a match or series.

Which is sort of what you wrote as well.

I still think they were underhanded tactics though...

Here's an article on what Martin Crowe thinks of Flem...

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/wc2007/content/current/story/292284.html

[edit]

Nah I don't blame Flem's decision on Murali's dismissal. That's why I said it was up for debate...

 

[Flem274*]

That's why I posted, to sort of agree with honestB...



Which is sort of what you wrote as well.

I still think they were underhanded tactics though...

Here's an article on what Martin Crowe thinks of Flem...

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/wc2007/content/current/story/292284.html

[edit]

Nah I don't blame Flem's decision on Murali's dismissal. That's why I said it was up for debate...

Sorry mate, misinterpreted you on that one. Thought you were Flem bashing for stuff done years ago lol

EDIT

well the Murali one was recent but yeah, misinterpreted ya

 

[Francis]

I still think he's overrated. That article I posted make some good points. Look how close New Zealand got in 1992... they were an Inzamam away from the final. Going to wikipedia shows me just how strong they were all through that tournament. Pakistan barely made it through while NZ were strong all the way through. New Zealand showed apathy toward their game against Australia last week, with Martin Crowe they won most of their world cup games and were unlucky not to make the final. No apathy with Martin Crowe!

Crowe also played more captains knocks I read.

 

[Flem274*]

I still think he's overrated. That article I posted make some good points. Look how close New Zealand got in 1992... they were an Inzamam away from the final. Going to wikipedia shows me just how strong they were all through that tournament. Pakistan barely made it through while NZ were strong all the way through. New Zealand showed apathy toward their game against NZ, with Martin Crowe they won most of their world cup games and were unlucky not to make the final.

Crowe also played more captains knocks I read.

There's no doubt that Crowe is the superior batsman. One of the problems that Fleming (and Crowe to a lesser extent) is that he's been given players he doesn't believe in so he has been forced to improvise. The selectors in the 90's weren't very good at giving the captains the players they believed in. Thats starting to change now. Hopefully with the captaicny pressure off Flem can go back to No.4 where he belongs and make himself a record to be proud of in his final few years. It's painful seeing him used as the sacrifice at the top of the order TBH