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Fleming steps down as OD captain

Craig

World Traveller
Sorry James, but that's ridiculous. If Richie McCaw says anything OTHER than they're a very good chance at the RWC if he's asked that question, he'll get laughed out of the press conference.

One of this country's biggest problems is the unrealistic expectations we put on every sports team as a result of the historical success of the All Blacks. We will never be #1 in world cricket. Ever. And with the way the junior grades and lower grades are looking, I expect us to slide down over the coming decades.
Numbers dropping or the standard or both?
 

Francis

State Vice-Captain
So what would you have done then?
I would have told my team they can still win and that they're respresenting their country, so they owe it to themselves to try their best and pull off an unlikely win. A win was definitely most unlikely, no question about it, but it's not like unlikely wins haven't happened before. And Chris Cairnes was at the crease IIRC. Tanking that match showed a lack of honour IMO. It also is unfair to fans who expect to see some competition. It felt to me like a legal way of cheating. Just like Fleming stalling for time in South Africa - waiting for a thunder storm.
 

Flem274*

123/5
15 years ago, when I was in third form, we played in sixth grade in Dunedin. There are now only three. And the standard at the lower levels is abysmal.
Because of my age I have no idea what the standard was like when you were playing, however IMO it is still quite good now. In Taranaki there is some good talent coming through, though it would be nice if the pitches at my school didn't vary in length or width. We were playing on a short pitch and the other team had a very fast bowler. Not fun.:laugh:
 

Flem274*

123/5
I would have told my team they can still win and that they're respresenting their country, so they owe it to themselves to try their best and pull off an unlikely win. A win was definitely most unlikely, no question about it, but it's not like unlikely wins haven't happened before. And Chris Cairnes was at the crease IIRC. Tanking that match showed a lack of honour IMO. It also is unfair to fans who expect to see some competition. It felt to me like a legal way of cheating. Just like Fleming stalling for time in South Africa - waiting for a thunder storm.
Fair enough on Flem stalling for a thunder storm, I'd much rather win or draw than lose. With regards to the bonus point, he gave us our best chance of reaching the final. That was his job. Get to the final and win.
 

ohtani's jacket

State Vice-Captain
Any criticism Fleming gets for not winning the World Cup is absurd. New Zealand will never win a World Cup, I figured that out when I was a kid... The satisfaction you get from watching New Zealand play is in seeing your country represented in cricket. Most radio callers don't care about cricket, but I hope someone back home is sticking up for Fleming. He took over at a time when NZ cricket was crap, utter crap, and he did one hell of a job for his country, often with sheer guile.

I can hardly stomach Crowe coming out of the woodwork. He resented Fleming being the captain then and he resents it now. In Crowe's mind he still was, and still is, the captain. Martin Crowe. The head bands, the runner, the melodramatic knee, the magnum opus of an innings. The only guy who can whine about being bowled for a duck by Murali when he made a century in the second innings. There's something wrong with that whole generation of cricketers. Has anyone ever had a positive encounter with Hadlee, for example?

Anyway, Fleming >> Crowe and he had the knocks to prove it. He, not Crowe, took NZ to unprecented success in one day cricket.
 

ohtani's jacket

State Vice-Captain
Fair enough on Flem stalling for a thunder storm, I'd much rather win or draw than lose. With regards to the bonus point, he gave us our best chance of reaching the final. That was his job. Get to the final and win.
It was a masterstroke from Fleming. Out-Waughing Steve Waugh. It was the Aussies that wanted the bonus point system and Fleming got his revenge for the Aussies' go-slow tactics in the '99 World Cup. Do unto the Aussies as they do unto you.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
One that springs to mind was in the VB series in Australia a few years ago. Australia, South Africa and New Zealand were participating in the series. New Zealand were playing South Africa and South Africa were very much on top and likely to win. Rather than asking his players to try and pull off a mircale victory, he told them not to pass a certain amount of runs so South Africa could get the bonus point - which they did. Thus ending Australia's chances of making the final.

I can understand not wanting to play Australia, but to deliberately tank a game seems against the spirit of the game. I'm against the bonus point system for that reason. Asking your players not to try and win a game, to tank it so it eliminates Australia... it just seems against the spirit of the game not to ask them to play their best, not to play with pride and not to try and win the game. The crowd got bored and booed as well, as it produced some dull cricket.
Not the first to do it, and won't be the last. Funnily enough, how do you know that it was Fleming, and not the coach's decision.

If the system has a loophole, then there's nought wrong with exploiting it.

Also, and this is from memory, weren't SA the ones guaranteed a spot in the final, and NZ could have cost themselves a spot in the final if they didn't get the bonus point? If so, why would you put that at risk in a round game when finals are at stake?

Of course there was also that time when NZ were 4-0 down in South Africa and playing the 5th game. A massive thunder storm loomed on the horizon, and with 15 overs bowled, Fleming started to ever so deliberately stall the game and continually change his field positions. They went off at the 19th overs, so Fleming's tactics had worked... thankfully it passed and SA won. But I'd never seen a captain take so long to set a field.
So does that make it bad sportsmanship every time you bring on a spinner to speed up the game, to get it to 20 overs?
 
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Flem274*

123/5
Not the first to do it, and won't be the last. Funnily enough, how do you know that it was Fleming, and not the coach's decision.

If the system has a loophole, then there's nought wrong with exploiting it.

Also, and this is from memory, weren't SA the ones guaranteed a spot in the final, and NZ could have cost themselves a spot in the final if they didn't get the bonus point? If so, why would you put that at risk in a round game when finals are at stake?

So does that make it bad sportsmanship every time you bring on a spinner to speed up the game, to get it to 20 overs?
Yeah didn't England use Panesar and Dalrymple in one of the CB finals to get to 20 overs before it rained?

Another one Francis will probably say is when John Bracewell noticed that Graeme Smith was prone to reacting to comments. He told Fleming that if he needed to and got an opportunity, to wind up Smith. Fleming used the tactic. I think he pretended to be angry at thier slow over rate or something and it worked. Smith came out all guns blazing trying to hit everything out of the park and he got out. Good tactics IMO. Smith will learn to keep his emotions in check in the future though IMO.
 

open365

International Vice-Captain
Fleming is one of my favourite players and imo the best captain in world cricket, sad to see him leave but i guess he didn't have enough motivation as he wouldn't last till the next WC.
 

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