Is Flintoff Overrated?

[Zinzan]

I started a similar Flintoff thread before the 2005 Ashes. After his great ashes I happily wrote a post conceding how wrong I had been. Since then he has done stuff-all, and his ODI form (which was his strength) has been decidedly average.So calls that he is overated based on his last year or so seem fair to me.

 

[Fiery]

Shane Warne's a good example...

very good point... Warne was a freak though

 

[PY]

A lot of very good cricketers have been booze-addled and woman-crazy off the field.

Not many of them would have been all-rounders in a time when cricket is a 12-month career.

I think Fiery has a small point, he doesn't give anything less than his all on the pitch but sometimes I think he has let his attitude slip back about 6/7 years off the field. Not all the time but some of it.

I don't care about his drinking because it is his choice but his timing leaves something to be desired. I believe he is in a form slump at the moment and he will jump out of it and reach heights again though maybe not like Ashes '05.

 

[Pup Clarke]

There's no doubting that Flintoff is a darn fine bowler in both forms of the game especially ODI cricket.He's the complete ODI bowler IMO.Very accurate,wicket taking ability at the start,middle and end of an innings and a magnificent death bowler,possibly the best in the world at that art.He's batting however has been pretty patchy for the last 2 years in both forms of the game TBH.He doesn't aspire great confidence IMO when he comes to crease (note the ashes series).He's still a pretty handy batsmen TBH.When he's in the mood (and these days are getting rarer and rarer) he can virtually take an attack apart a la SA in 2003.

 

[Fiery]

Not many of them would have been all-rounders in a time when cricket is a 12-month career.

I think Fiery has a small point, he doesn't give anything less than his all on the pitch but sometimes I think he has let his attitude slip back about 6/7 years off the field. Not all the time but some of it.

I don't care about his drinking because it is his choice but his timing leaves something to be desired. I believe he is in a form slump at the moment and he will jump out of it and reach heights again though maybe not like Ashes '05.

well said PY

 

[GIMH]

It really ****s me to see people saying he's done **** all since the Ashes. I know fiery admitted his mistake, but others persist in making said statement. Honestly, to go to India, score 4 50s and a 41 in five innings, take eleven wickets, and captain your side to a 1-1 draw is such a good achievement it's not even funny. And he hasn't even bowled badly at any point post-Ashes. He's a victim of his own success here for mine, if he hadn't been so bloody good in 2005, maybe people would realise he's not been atrocious since.

 

[Pup Clarke]

It really ****s me to see people saying he's done **** all since the Ashes. I know fiery admitted his mistake, but others persist in making said statement. Honestly, to go to India, score 4 50s and a 41 in five innings, take eleven wickets, and captain your side to a 1-1 draw is such a good achievement it's not even funny. And he hasn't even bowled badly at any point post-Ashes. He's a victim of his own success here for mine, if he hadn't been so bloody good in 2005, maybe people would realise he's not been atrocious since.

 

[GIMH]

I should probably edit my post but it's been quoted so I'll say it here - when I say he hasn't bowled badly at any point - I mean consistently badly. Obviously not every spell has been a good one.

 

[Pup Clarke]

I should probably edit my post but it's been quoted so I'll say it here - when I say he hasn't bowled badly at any point - I mean consistently badly. Obviously not every spell has been a good one.

TBH I've hardly ever remembered Flintoff bowl a bad spell since the Ashes 2005.I have such confidence in him when the ball is in his hands.

 

[Matt79]

Not many of them would have been all-rounders in a time when cricket is a 12-month career.

Sobers, Miller? Yeah, I know it wasn't a 12 month a year thing back then, but they didn't have McDonald's breakfasts and gatorade back then either...

 

[Poker Boy]

Overrated as compared to what ?

Are you putting Flintoff in the top echelon with Imran, Miller, Sobers ? If so, i'd say yes, he's definitely overrated.

Are you putting Flintoff in the bracket just below with Kapil, Mankad, Botham, Kallis, Procter, etc ? Then yes, i'd say he is probably overrated.

But if you are putting him in the next tier with Cairns, Pollock, Hadlee, Benaud, etc, you are probably doing justice to Flintoff.

(The abovementioned is for Tests)

In ODIs, i'd say Flintoff is in the third tier again, with Cairns, Pollock, etc. in the same boat.

He's not a one series wonder! between SA at home in 2003 and India away in 2006 he was consistently outstanding! He hasn't done much since he came back this winter but that's partly because we lumbered him with the captaincy. I do agree though so far in WCs (not just this one) he is a batting underachever (like Botham was) and needs to improve.
As for the all rounder lists, I agree with where you've put Flintoff (but judge him at the end of his career) but IMO Botham should be promoted to the top group and Hadlee to the second. And if Mike Procter had had a full test career I think he'd have got into the elite group too.

 

[Hoppy1987]

to be honest it is not as if he has let us down with the ball at all, maybe he hasn't taken as many wickets as he should have done, but captaincy is a huge burden, especially where so many people's hope are already pressuring him without any added incentives. Also he has had many niggling injuries which are not going to help Fred in any way!Maybe his batting has been poor, but it has been more lack of application than talent!

 

[Zinzan]

but IMO Botham should be promoted to the top group and Hadlee to the second.

Its always a tough argument this, because over his whole career Hadlee a much superior bowler to Botham as Botham was a much superior batsmen to Hadlee and Sober's was a superior Batsmen hadlee or botham, but an inferior bowler to both. Yet all fall into the great test allrounder category which IMO is a batting average of over 25 and 2000 runs and bowling ave of less than 35 and 200 wickets. Thats why IMO Imran was the greatest of them all.

 

[Loony BoB]

Flintoff is one of the better players (if not the best) in an England squad.

Of course he's going to be overrated. This is England we're talking about. Hell, they have compared Rooney to Pelé (as much as I love Rooney as a United fan, I don't think he's comparable to arguably the greatest footballer in history). Any English player who lives up to or beyond the hype that the English media will surround them with - in any sport - is a legend. Because in England, only a legend will do. That's something I've noticed since arriving here.

 

[andmark]

Flintoff is one of the better players (if not the best) in an England squad.

Of course he's going to be overrated. This is England we're talking about. Hell, they have compared Rooney to Pelé (as much as I love Rooney as a United fan, I don't think he's comparable to arguably the greatest footballer in history). Any English player who lives up to or beyond the hype that the English media will surround them with - in any sport - is a legend. Because in England, only a legend will do. That's something I've noticed since arriving here.

He isn't the best in the english squad.

 

[Richard]

Flintoff is one of the better players (if not the best) in an England squad.

Of course he's going to be overrated. This is England we're talking about. Hell, they have compared Rooney to Pelé (as much as I love Rooney as a United fan, I don't think he's comparable to arguably the greatest footballer in history). Any English player who lives up to or beyond the hype that the English media will surround them with - in any sport - is a legend. Because in England, only a legend will do. That's something I've noticed since arriving here.

You only noticed it since arriving?

I probably noticed it before I was conceived!

 

[Richard]

Not many of them would have been all-rounders in a time when cricket is a 12-month career.

I think Fiery has a small point, he doesn't give anything less than his all on the pitch but sometimes I think he has let his attitude slip back about 6/7 years off the field. Not all the time but some of it.

I don't care about his drinking because it is his choice but his timing leaves something to be desired. I believe he is in a form slump at the moment and he will jump out of it and reach heights again though maybe not like Ashes '05.

People mentioning his drinking piss me off mostly. So many people make-out he's a borderline alcoholic or something! FCOL, come down to a shop like mine and see the amount some people drink there! And those are the milder ones!

Seriously, so many people know nothing about alcohol consumption and think they know it all.

 

[GIMH]

He isn't the best in the english squad.

Who is?

 

[PhoenixFire]

Who is?

Wayne Rooney?

 

[Loony BoB]

Like I said. One of the better players. Who is the best is a matter of personal opinion, I would imagine.