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Where does Ricky Ponting rank?

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
A bit more than "very slightly" better these days I'd have to say.
Agreed.

Disagree. Malcolm-Fraser-Gough-Caddick-Tufnell are about even-par with Flintoff-Harmison-Jones-Giles-Hoggard.

The latter group looks a lot better than they are because the bowling quality today is a lot thinner.
It's also much harder to be a great bowler in today's game...

Don't tell me you write all this non sense about advantage and disadvantage and then you won't accept the inverse to that relationship.

BTW: I was interested, did you find when Tendulkar played Ambrose pre-Ponting?
 

PY

International Coach
These boys know how to quote, that's for sure. I think we can leave this discussion there as the horse has been flogged so much that it is now parading as Pedigree Chum's finest. To me, it doesn't appear to be going anywhere and it's basically the same people arguing about the same stuff for the last 200 posts.

I was tempted to put you three on ignore just for reading this thread so I could read the posts I'm actually interested in.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Can it pleeease stop?
LOL, Yes I'm done.

PY said:
These boys know how to quote, that's for sure. I think we can leave this discussion there as the horse has been flogged so much that it is now parading as Pedigree Chum's finest. To me, it doesn't appear to be going anywhere and it's basically the same people arguing about the same stuff for the last 200 posts.

I was tempted to put you three on ignore just for reading this thread so I could read the posts I'm actually interested in.
Sorry mate.
 

C_C

International Captain
Against Pakistan his average was 35
Context..context context !!

For one,Tendulkar was debuting against Pakistan. A debut average of 35 is good against any opposition even today- unless they happen to be BD or Zim.
For two, Tendulkar was sixteen.
For a sixteen year old to finish a series with 35 average in TEST cricket on 80s wickets is exemplary.
For three, Tendulkar was facing down Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Qadir.
Ie, an attack superior to any today- yes, that includes a jaded Imran ( who was in context, better than Pollock is today) and a debuting Waqar ( Waqar early years = stunning speed and reverse swing).
Ie, so for a sixteen year old debutant batting on 80s pitches against one of the best bowling attacks ever to take the field together, it was a great great performance.

It's also much harder to be a great bowler in today's game...
Not really. McGrath,Murali,Warne, Ntini, Bond, Asif are all having good times or were until very recently. And neither of them save for maybe Murali has been bowling at 'hithero unknown heights'. Ie, McGrath's bowling 2 years ago is no different than his bowling 7 years ago. Neither are his success levels. Yes, i expect performances to slip somewhat for bowlers but as i keep saying, the inverse (as you imply it) would be true if and only if pitch quality was the only factor that changed.
It is a fact that today's bowling attacks are slip-shod and bowling attacks for the past five-six years have been utterly rubbish or possibly at an alltime low in Tests.
Whether you like it or not, it is a fact that 90s bowlers such as Ambrose, Walsh,Bishop, Donald, Wasim,Waqar,Mushie and Saqlain have not been replaced even remotely well by their teams.
Its not just a question of the conditions stacked against the bowlers, its also the fact that bowlers themselves suck utterly today.

Take now for example : At this point of time in test cricket, the best pace bowler going around is Ntini followed by a less-than-20-match-experienced Asif, followed byClark, Flintoff and Vaas probably ( Pollock next).
This kind of shallow pace bowling quality hasnt been seen since i dunno when.
I can say that atleast 60s era and onwards, at no point was pace bowling attack weak enough that the top 5 were of Ntini-Vaas-Flintoff callibre with two total newbies in the midst.

The reasons i consider Ponting to be inferior to Tendulkar and Lara is the same reason I consider Dravid, Kallis, Yousuf to be lesser batsmen than Tendy-Lara.
Ponting has had the easiest time of them all because not only does he bat in the strongest batting lineup, he also had the best team to play for.
Ponting is also not relatively as dominant of the field as Tendulkar or Lara were during their heydeys. ( I've already demonstrated this by comparing how many people were in the 50+ or 45-50 range when Tendulkar or Lara were averaging 60-ish compared to Ponting and today)

ie, he simply hasn't done enough to suggest he is in Tendulkar-Lara category.

In one-dayers, its pretty much a done deal. Not only does Ponting not come close to Tendulkar's strike rate, consistency, century-making overall, he isnt anywhere close to Tendulkar of the last 10-12 years running.
People who look at overall stats do not realize that Tendulkar's greatness is not just in the fact that he scores runs and centuries better than anyone else at a great strike rate to boot. Overall stats completely masks the fact that Tendulkar was a poor ODI player at the first part of his career and that since 1994, he's been utterly dominant of the field in a way Ponting isn't either.

Just about the only thing Ponting has as a player over Tendulkar is that Ponting is a way way better ground-fielder than Tendulkar is.
 

Fiery

Banned
Context..context context !!

For one,Tendulkar was debuting against Pakistan. A debut average of 35 is good against any opposition even today- unless they happen to be BD or Zim.
For two, Tendulkar was sixteen.
For a sixteen year old to finish a series with 35 average in TEST cricket on 80s wickets is exemplary.
For three, Tendulkar was facing down Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Qadir.
Ie, an attack superior to any today- yes, that includes a jaded Imran ( who was in context, better than Pollock is today) and a debuting Waqar ( Waqar early years = stunning speed and reverse swing).
Ie, so for a sixteen year old debutant batting on 80s pitches against one of the best bowling attacks ever to take the field together, it was a great great performance.



Not really. McGrath,Murali,Warne, Ntini, Bond, Asif are all having good times or were until very recently. And neither of them save for maybe Murali has been bowling at 'hithero unknown heights'. Ie, McGrath's bowling 2 years ago is no different than his bowling 7 years ago. Neither are his success levels. Yes, i expect performances to slip somewhat for bowlers but as i keep saying, the inverse (as you imply it) would be true if and only if pitch quality was the only factor that changed.
It is a fact that today's bowling attacks are slip-shod and bowling attacks for the past five-six years have been utterly rubbish or possibly at an alltime low in Tests.
Whether you like it or not, it is a fact that 90s bowlers such as Ambrose, Walsh,Bishop, Donald, Wasim,Waqar,Mushie and Saqlain have not been replaced even remotely well by their teams.
Its not just a question of the conditions stacked against the bowlers, its also the fact that bowlers themselves suck utterly today.

Take now for example : At this point of time in test cricket, the best pace bowler going around is Ntini followed by a less-than-20-match-experienced Asif, followed byClark, Flintoff and Vaas probably ( Pollock next).
This kind of shallow pace bowling quality hasnt been seen since i dunno when.
I can say that atleast 60s era and onwards, at no point was pace bowling attack weak enough that the top 5 were of Ntini-Vaas-Flintoff callibre with two total newbies in the midst.

The reasons i consider Ponting to be inferior to Tendulkar and Lara is the same reason I consider Dravid, Kallis, Yousuf to be lesser batsmen than Tendy-Lara.
Ponting has had the easiest time of them all because not only does he bat in the strongest batting lineup, he also had the best team to play for.
Ponting is also not relatively as dominant of the field as Tendulkar or Lara were during their heydeys. ( I've already demonstrated this by comparing how many people were in the 50+ or 45-50 range when Tendulkar or Lara were averaging 60-ish compared to Ponting and today)

ie, he simply hasn't done enough to suggest he is in Tendulkar-Lara category.

In one-dayers, its pretty much a done deal. Not only does Ponting not come close to Tendulkar's strike rate, consistency, century-making overall, he isnt anywhere close to Tendulkar of the last 10-12 years running.
People who look at overall stats do not realize that Tendulkar's greatness is not just in the fact that he scores runs and centuries better than anyone else at a great strike rate to boot. Overall stats completely masks the fact that Tendulkar was a poor ODI player at the first part of his career and that since 1994, he's been utterly dominant of the field in a way Ponting isn't either.

Just about the only thing Ponting has as a player over Tendulkar is that Ponting is a way way better ground-fielder than Tendulkar is.
Shut up!!!!
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Obviously the figures don't lie since 2002 and 2003, the amount of runs he has scored has been incredible, if gluttony were run scoring, he would be long dead.

However, that is not the point of my thread though, where does he sits in terms of being considered a great player, IMO he can be and is, but is it possible he can be considered an all-time great player and would he have been as successfull if he played in past era's (from the 80's onwards)? Or even stack up to the past greats, I know it is hard to compare era's, so do the best you can.

He certainly has got runs in all conditions and has played some brilliant knocks. I guess two of them stand out in his 156 against England at OT in 2005 his match-winner against Bangladesh last year. Don't knock it and say 'it's only Bangladesh', because it wasn't that easy as Bangladesh put on a good first total, got a first innings lead and set over 300 runs to win, and they were more competitive then South Africa were their most recent Test series before the Bangladesh tour and England in last year's Ashes, even if it were just one Test match and Australia only got home by three wickets. Too discredit that knock would be grossly unfair and an insult to how Bangladesh played in that game.

I know people (I don't mean any malice) like CC and HB will point out the obvious, about his record in India, but his first time there and it was then Ponting >>>>>> to curent Ponting, 2001 was a form slump and I agree with that (tbf all players have poor series) and in 2004 he missed three Tests with a broken finger (might have been thumb actually IIRC) and played the last Test on a farcial wicket. Plus he has got runs in Pakistan and Sri Lanka and has got runs in ODIs, ok it is a different game, but the pitches, outfields, grounds are the same and the bowlers (to an extent) are as well.

And if somebody went down that angle then I could point out Rahul Dravid in return, true he averages 48 against Australia, but that is because of his knocks of 233 and 180 in 00/01 and 03/04. And if you took out his 233 his average is a mere 31 in Australia, not 56. Anyway I went off track there and won't harp on too much about it, it was an example I used.

I guess the point of this thread wasn't to creat discussion based on his stats, but if you look much further then that and and actually watch him bat (ie you see if his feet were moving well etc.) and where his standing would be compared to the past legends of the game.

So what do you think?
He is the best in the world, as of now, IMO.


All time, I would rate him below the Sachin/Lara level. And plz, for the last time, dont try to explain away each and everyone of his failures in India. He played like what 10 tests spread over 8 or 9 years and he still averages tailenderesque. This is just like how Warne is always injured when he is taken apart.


But one thing about him, though. He just looks very complete as a player, given the standard of bowling today. He just doesn't seem to have any major weakness apart from the fact that he falls over when he is new to the crease. I may well be wrong here, but I think if he can maintain his fitness (and he is among the fittest in the world), I think he can break almost all batting records in tests and give a shot for the same in ODIs. But a lot depends on how he copes with the added batting pressure and the loss of McWarne. With Gilchrist and Hayden also being closer to the end rather than the start of their careers, remains to be seen how that kind of pressure affects him.


Also, I guess, with time, his reflexes will slow down, just like it did with Lara and Tendulkar and I think his falling over weakness will get accentuated over the years, IF quality bowlers keep coming through and dont get injured and go out.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Well the Hayden knock clearly not since it was between two FC teams in the County Championship, I didn't see the innings Hayden played for obvious reasons. I don't see the relevence tbh between the two since Ponting was in an official Test match. Like or not it was a Test so accept it please? If it were Zimbabwe I would agree, but it wasn't so I disagree.



Didn't you read what I said about his record in India or is that bit a bit too hard for some people? And if you go on about his ave in India, then I will give you Rahul Dravid, minus his 233.
why minus? Ponting got to play against INdia in India without Srinath and Kumble and what did he do? Couldn't even manage a 233, right?
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
This is my last post in this debate as it seems to have become tiresome to all but yourself.

Context..context context !!

For one,Tendulkar was debuting against Pakistan. A debut average of 35 is good against any opposition even today- unless they happen to be BD or Zim.
For two, Tendulkar was sixteen.
For a sixteen year old to finish a series with 35 average in TEST cricket on 80s wickets is exemplary.
For three, Tendulkar was facing down Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Qadir.
Ie, an attack superior to any today- yes, that includes a jaded Imran ( who was in context, better than Pollock is today) and a debuting Waqar ( Waqar early years = stunning speed and reverse swing).
Ie, so for a sixteen year old debutant batting on 80s pitches against one of the best bowling attacks ever to take the field together, it was a great great performance.
Just as we can excuse Ponting's avg. 44 (excuse it, LOL, it's very good) at the start of his career and the rest of his career is extraoordinary.

I already showed you Sachin's performances throughout. In context, in general, it is a very fine feat - something you won't see me belittling - however, his career as whole till then was upped by the fact of his age. Not his performance in relativity with his career.

FIS - Ponting almost scored a century on debut, was called incorrectly at 96.


Not really. McGrath,Murali,Warne, Ntini, Bond, Asif are all having good times or were until very recently. And neither of them save for maybe Murali has been bowling at 'hithero unknown heights'. Ie, McGrath's bowling 2 years ago is no different than his bowling 7 years ago. Neither are his success levels. Yes, i expect performances to slip somewhat for bowlers but as i keep saying, the inverse (as you imply it) would be true if and only if pitch quality was the only factor that changed.
It is a fact that today's bowling attacks are slip-shod and bowling attacks for the past five-six years have been utterly rubbish or possibly at an alltime low in Tests.
Whether you like it or not, it is a fact that 90s bowlers such as Ambrose, Walsh,Bishop, Donald, Wasim,Waqar,Mushie and Saqlain have not been replaced even remotely well by their teams.
Its not just a question of the conditions stacked against the bowlers, its also the fact that bowlers themselves suck utterly today.
You just named 3 of the great all-time bowlers. That's hardly a realistic measure to gauge the rest. The others are doing well, but even Ntini's numbers may not be impressive looking back at some others like McDermott, but when you take into account the pitches it surely is. I'm sorry, you can't weasel out every point simply because your sensibilities are offended. If you make the generalisation that batting is easier now because of pitches and bowling, then you must also regard the generalisation that it is much harder to bowl considering the pitches and the batsmen.

Whether you like it or not. Ponting has played against the same bowlers and done well enough to not have to be smeared by your anti-australia brush. I already showed you how many times and which bowlers Tendulkar faced. It's not as impressive as you keep touting. Especially considering having faced them, he didn't do well against all of them.

Take now for example : At this point of time in test cricket, the best pace bowler going around is Ntini followed by a less-than-20-match-experienced Asif, followed byClark, Flintoff and Vaas probably ( Pollock next).
This kind of shallow pace bowling quality hasnt been seen since i dunno when.
I can say that atleast 60s era and onwards, at no point was pace bowling attack weak enough that the top 5 were of Ntini-Vaas-Flintoff callibre with two total newbies in the midst.
It's because so many nations have had a changing of the guard. Including the best Aussie side. New guys are coming in. This is what is expected. Some of the best bowlers ended their careers in the 90s - to which a lot of them Ponting faced.

The reasons i consider Ponting to be inferior to Tendulkar and Lara is the same reason I consider Dravid, Kallis, Yousuf to be lesser batsmen than Tendy-Lara.
Ponting has had the easiest time of them all because not only does he bat in the strongest batting lineup, he also had the best team to play for.
Ponting is also not relatively as dominant of the field as Tendulkar or Lara were during their heydeys. ( I've already demonstrated this by comparing how many people were in the 50+ or 45-50 range when Tendulkar or Lara were averaging 60-ish compared to Ponting and today)
Ponting is as dominant as anyone can be right now. He is certainly far ahead of those you compare him with (Kallis & co) at the moment and he is scoring centuries for fun. He tied a record held by Gavaskar recently, do you remember what it was? :) And don't tell me it has to do with pitches :).

ie, he simply hasn't done enough to suggest he is in Tendulkar-Lara category.
Your opinion, that's fine. I think he has broken into that argument, but is probably inferior as it stands.

In one-dayers, its pretty much a done deal. Not only does Ponting not come close to Tendulkar's strike rate, consistency, century-making overall, he isnt anywhere close to Tendulkar of the last 10-12 years running.
People who look at overall stats do not realize that Tendulkar's greatness is not just in the fact that he scores runs and centuries better than anyone else at a great strike rate to boot. Overall stats completely masks the fact that Tendulkar was a poor ODI player at the first part of his career and that since 1994, he's been utterly dominant of the field in a way Ponting isn't either.
Actually, whilst one-days have nothing to do with what we're discussing, Ponting is doing VERY well and if he continues to have the same amount of matches as Tendulkar, you can expect him to get close with the way he is/has been going.

Just about the only thing Ponting has as a player over Tendulkar is that Ponting is a way way better ground-fielder than Tendulkar is.
And let's end your rant on that note :).
 

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