Where does Ricky Ponting rank?

[Craig]

Obviously the figures don't lie since 2002 and 2003, the amount of runs he has scored has been incredible, if gluttony were run scoring, he would be long dead.

However, that is not the point of my thread though, where does he sits in terms of being considered a great player, IMO he can be and is, but is it possible he can be considered an all-time great player and would he have been as successfull if he played in past era's (from the 80's onwards)? Or even stack up to the past greats, I know it is hard to compare era's, so do the best you can.

He certainly has got runs in all conditions and has played some brilliant knocks. I guess two of them stand out in his 156 against England at OT in 2005 his match-winner against Bangladesh last year. Don't knock it and say 'it's only Bangladesh', because it wasn't that easy as Bangladesh put on a good first total, got a first innings lead and set over 300 runs to win, and they were more competitive then South Africa were their most recent Test series before the Bangladesh tour and England in last year's Ashes, even if it were just one Test match and Australia only got home by three wickets. Too discredit that knock would be grossly unfair and an insult to how Bangladesh played in that game.

I know people (I don't mean any malice) like CC and HB will point out the obvious, about his record in India, but his first time there and it was then Ponting >>>>>> to curent Ponting, 2001 was a form slump and I agree with that (tbf all players have poor series) and in 2004 he missed three Tests with a broken finger (might have been thumb actually IIRC) and played the last Test on a farcial wicket. Plus he has got runs in Pakistan and Sri Lanka and has got runs in ODIs, ok it is a different game, but the pitches, outfields, grounds are the same and the bowlers (to an extent) are as well.

And if somebody went down that angle then I could point out Rahul Dravid in return, true he averages 48 against Australia, but that is because of his knocks of 233 and 180 in 00/01 and 03/04. And if you took out his 233 his average is a mere 31 in Australia, not 56. Anyway I went off track there and won't harp on too much about it, it was an example I used.

I guess the point of this thread wasn't to creat discussion based on his stats, but if you look much further then that and and actually watch him bat (ie you see if his feet were moving well etc.) and where his standing would be compared to the past legends of the game.

So what do you think?

 

[Nishant]

First, i'd like to say that its a good thread uve opened here....and good question as well!

Ponting, IMO has to be considered as a great...he performs well on a consistent basis, especially of late and can be someone that the aussies rely on. Not only that, he has the pressure of captaining a side that is expected to do well as it has been ranked no. 1 for so long in both forms of the game ( maybe now its no. 2...but u know wat i mean!)

Ponting is vulnerable when new at the crease. His feet do not move well and can be got out quite early with some good bowling in my opinion. But, after that, he does settle down and play some really good knocks that are great to watch. I think thats the case with most greats though....its all about holding ur nerve in the intial stages of ur innings...and ponting manages to do that more often than not.

What i also like a bout ponting is the fact that he can play on all pitche sand is an aggresive player when he needs to be. If we compare him to Dravid, who i also rate highly btw, Dravid, IMO, does not have such a great ability to switch gears. In the modern game i think its alwys great to see a bit of risk taken, in pressure situations, maybe.

Ponting will be a legend IMO. But, he will be a legend of the modern game. As perhaps Gavaskar was a legend of the game in his era, so will ponting be in his. I think thats quite true of all legends. I actually dont think that players like Gavaskar can be a legend of the modern game...like if a player like gavaskar was to enter the scene now, he would not be as big a hit.

 

[GIMH]

Good thread as always Craigos.

For me, it's hard to say where Ponting ranks in terms of all-time greatness, but in my opinion, he is currently without peer in terms of batsmen. We are far from bereft of fine batsmen in the modern game (Kallis, Dravid, Yousuf, Hussey, Pietersen to name the next best five IMO) but Ponting stands head and shoulders above them. Comparing eras is always difficult, and Bradman aside, who has an undisputed title, I believe that being the best of an era is the best accolade that can be reasonably laid on a player. It's an accolade I'd give to Ponting.

When do Australia next go to India? I'd like to see him put his record straight to be honest. I believe they go there at the backend of 07 or maybe early 08, he'll still be in his prime, and I hope he scores big, big runs.

 

[Fiery]

chimpanzee

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Ponting's career isn't over, so you can't really rank him that well over all time, just yet. I think he's certainly the best batsman in the world right now, and that's more or less beyond dispute. That's really a form issue though, and in terms of career achievements there's one or two other guys around who are in the same bracket.

Among Australian cricketers, he's certainly earned his place in that top group behind Bradman that includes Chappell, Waugh, Border, Harvey etc. Just how high up he is will be easier to judge when he's retired, but personally I think he's a bit better than people usually place him, and that once his career is in the past his various shortcomings as a batsman will seem less important, and he'll be ranked as one of the greatest of all time. There's still some things he could achieve though, so a bit of that is guesswork at this point.

 

[Richard]

I've always said Ponting is a very, very fine batsman but that it's no coincidence that his career took-off the way it did at the precise moment run-scoring became so easy. There are all sorts of other batsmen who started scoring heaps more than they had previously around about the same time: Hayden, Laxman, Dravid, Kallis, Martyn, etc. At virtually no other time in the game's history have we had an abundance of players averaging in the 50s, 60s and even 70s over 4 or 5 years. The reasons for this are well-discussed: poor flat pitches, abysmal quality cricket-balls, rubbish bowlers, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe being included in Test statistics, the like.

One final point: yes, Craig, Ponting's knock against Bangladesh was a superb one. Here's something for you, though: these two knocks by Matthew Hayden were also superb. Believe me, I know, I watched them. Does that mean that game should be classed a Test, too?

 

[The_Bunny]

It would be interesting if he played til he was 40 odd...
20000 runs

 

[Matt79]

I believe that being the best of an era is the best accolade that can be reasonably laid on a player. It's an accolade I'd give to Ponting.

Among Australian cricketers, he's certainly earned his place in that top group behind Bradman that includes Chappell, Waugh, Border, Harvey etc.

Agree entirely with both those points. I think watching Ponting mature and blossom as batsman has been one of the most enjoyable aspects of cricket for me in my time watching the sport.

He's done a phenomenal job coming in in the toughest slot for a long time now (admittedly behind one of the great opening partnerships), and captaincy has actually improved his performance as a bat. He has all the shots, has that extra time that true greats always has, and when in touch has that ability to place shots (especially his pull shot) just so.

He's a consumate pro with the bat, and I think this is shown by considering his generally acknowledged vulnerability early in the innings from a different perspective. Certainly he is pronoucedly more vulnerable in the early stages of his innings - but this is true of almost all batsmen. Where he differs from the majority of batsmen is the degree to which if you fail to dismiss him before he's set, he will so consistently punish you. His concentration, fitness, and ability is demonstrated in how often he goes on to score big once he survives the first part of his innings and settles. I suspect his average in innings where he scores 20+ must be easily the highest of current players and one of the highest of all time - I haven't checked it, but would be shocked if this wasn't the case.

Thankfully he has many years left in him, because when he goes, Australia will be (on current form) without a truly great batsman for the first time since G. Chappell joined the team. Chappell passed the torch to Border, who passed it to Steve Waugh, and then to Ponting, just as each of those greats began to decline, their successor as the premier batsman in the team was establishing themselves as one of the very best in the world, and as an alltime great in Australian cricket. Hussey is promising, but not that much younger than Ponting, and at the moment I don't think there's a player of similar quality either in the team or on the verge. When he does draw stumps, I suspect Australia will miss him just as much as they'll miss McGrath and Warne - and to be bracketed with them in terms of importance to a team surely underlines his stature.

 

[pup11]

Punter is not only a great of his era but IMO he is one of the all-time greats, I would say he is one of the best no.3 batsman to ever play the game.

He is only 32 atm and i believe his best is yet to come.

 

[Matt79]

Would actually have loved to see how he would have fared against either Bodyline or the Windies pace quartets of the 80s. These days that kind of bowling isn't allowed so he really hasn't had to deal with it, but at the same time, whenever people have tried the short stuff with him he's demonstrated he's one of the best exponents of the pull shot ever to take guard. Would have been a fantastic contest to see. (Although no doubt it may be relevant to point out that had he grown up in an era without helmets etc he might not have developed that aspect of his game to the same extent - I'd like to think he would have, but you can't know for sure).

 

[Richard]

Thankfully he has many years left in him, because when he goes, Australia will be (on current form) without a truly great batsman for the first time since G. Chappell joined the team. As Chappell passed the torch to Border, who passed it to Steve Waugh, and then to Ponting, just as each of those greats began to decline, their successor as the premier batsman in the team was establishing themselves as one of the very best in the world, and as an alltime great in Australian cricket. Hussey is promising, but not that much younger than Ponting, and at the moment I don't think there's a player of similar quality either in the team or on the verge.

Michael Clarke certainly isn't impossible.

 

[Matt79]

Yeah, Clarke isn't impossible - he's certainly a much better batsman now than he was before he was dropped. I hope he goes on with it and continues to improve, but I have a feeling at the moment that he'll end up in the Damien Martyn, Mark Waugh bracket of very very good, but probably not quite a great (but certainly nothing to be sneared at)

 

[Dasa]

I suspect his average in innings where he scores 20+ must be easily the highest of current players and one of the highest of all time - I haven't checked it, but would be shocked if this wasn't the case.

I had a look at all current players averaging over 50 and their averages in innings where they've passed 20:
Ponting - 86.76
Kallis - 87.83
Dravid - 85.01
Tendulkar - 89.82
Lara - 85.82
Sangakkara - 77.03
Hayden - 76.04
Yousuf - 89.88
Inzamam - 81.71

...and some other players for comparison:
Steve Waugh - 91.54
Andy Flower - 85.32
Greg Chappell - 83.07
Viv Richards - 76.78
Sunil Gavaskar - 81.64

Gary Sobers - 87.01
Don Bradman - 142.66

 

[Matt79]

Nice one Dasa!

So he's comfortably up there with some true greats like G. Chappell, Sobers and Lara. Bradman's is obviously nuts, but Tendulkar and Waugh's are truly impressive given the length of their careers. The fact that player's of the quality of Sangga, Hayden and Viv average a whole ten runs less is in some ways prove of what I was saying about that characteristic separating him from most other batsman.

Surprised, in one sense, that so many current players are in such esteemed company - not only Ponting, but also Kallis, Yousuf and Dravid. I suppose on the other hand, its not that surprising, since they're all averaging 50+ and are all still in their prime. It will be interesting to see what their stats are like when they retire in comparison to those past players listed.

geez, Flower was a fair gun wasn't he?

 

[silentstriker]

He certainly has got runs in all conditions

He certainly has not.

 

[Richard]

On a side note, why is virtually no-one capable of using the batting or bowling layout on StatsGuru?

 

[Matt79]

LOL at SS quoting himself in his signature.

 

[Richard]

I thought that, but I thought 2 criticisms in 1 post would be too much.

 

[pup11]

I see Clarke as great player in the future simply because he is naturally talented and gifted batsman, but Clarke's exceptional talent to play quality spin bowling on even spin friendly tracks would just help fasten the process of him evolving into a great player in the future.

He surely has shown that he has got great temperament with the way he performed during the Ashes 06-07, which was his comeback test series after being dropped.

 

[Johnners]

My Thoughts on Ponting have pretty much already been said, but meh, he's a gun, so here i go

Like Matt79, watching Ponting develop as a batsman has easily been the highlight for me, in my time of watching cricket. When he made his test debut in 96, was when i really started getting into cricket, and from that day foward, he has easily been my favourite player. From the young dasher who took it to the Sri Lankan bowling attack that day, to the focused, determined, gritty captain, who was intent on inflicting as much pain as possible on the old enemy in the 06/07 ashes, pontings career for me has been 1 big highlight reel (barring several unsavoury incidents, namely kings cross).

In terms of the Current era, as GIMH has already mentioned, he's peerless. Dravid, Kallis, Yousuf & Co. are all undoubtably class batsmen, however, none have seemed to have been able to change the course of a match, or have as much influence on a match as ponting has been able to. Coming in at no.3, a batting position regarded as the toughest, he's mastered the art of being able to adapt to the situation, whether its 1/1 or 1/150, you know Punter will adapt to the situation, and do his absolute best to inflict pain & suffering upon the opposition bowlers when the time is right.

Much is made of his vulnerability early, and how he walks accross the line etc. etc. but the reality of the situation is, all batsmen are vulnerable early, and sure, you can try and trap him LBW falling accross the line, but 9/10 he's going to punch you through midwicket for four. IMO his perceived weakness, is easily one of his strengths, and so many bowlers fall into that trap. His pull shot is one of the greatest, and there are few better sights than a Ponting straight drive. Hayden may have the power, but for sheer technique & timing i'd prefer to watch Ponting drive anyday. The only string missing in his bow is to suceed in India, somethign i've no doubt he will do.

I'd have loved to have seen how he would've went against the great WI attacks of the 80's. IMO he would do better than many think, mainly due to his awesomeness through the legside, but then the WI attack would've likely been more capable of exploiting his weaknesses. Whatever the case, it would be a battle i'd definetly pay to see.

In terms of "Overall greatness", come the end of his career, i'm 100% certain he'll be known as one of the top 10 batsmen of all time, however, it's how he performs in the upcoming years that will determine if he's no.2 or no.10. Should he continue in his rich veign of form for another 2/3 years, the "best since bradman" tag is at his mercy. Time will tell i guess.