Kapil Dev - Great in India only?

[vic_orthdox]

Just throwing out ideas here, but reverse swing being easier to get on the drier pitches of Pakistan, rather than away from home.

 

[Richard]

Sorry, mis-read.

Wasim is more closely associated with Waqar as Imran was largely finished as a front-liner by the period in question.

Imran was another magnificent bowler - like Wasim he swung the ball both ways at great pace. Some of the best bowling I've ever seen came from him on a tour of Eng in the early 80s where, quite frankly, quite blatant home-town umpiring stood between Pakistan and a series victory over a good English side.

BTW, I do realise that there is more to playing cricket against Oz but I didnt see Waqar perform at his best so am in no position to judge

AND Pakistan is different to India (believe it or not)

Obviously so, but both tend to have in common a lack of seam-friendliness in the pitches (and a lack of swing in the atmosphere). It's just in India that tended to mean spin-friendly decks and in Pakistan completely bowler-graveyard tracks.

I didn't mean to compare Imran and Waqar - simply point-out that both demonstrate that bowling well with the subcontinent your home as a seamer is far from impossible. Kapil probably would have been more successful had he been, as I say, English or Kiwi (only Angus Fraser, in all likelihood, matches his talent of the English players in the post-Snow\Willis era) but I don't like the "he was from the subcontinent so he was bound to have it hard as a seamer" line of thought, because some bowlers have disproved such a thing.

 

[Richard]

BTW, Waqar's test record was significantly better at home than away - he averaged over 5 runs a wicket less and took less wickets per test

Given that I didnt see much of him (and when I did, he was a class below Wasim), can anyone shed light on the reasons behind this?

Just throwing out ideas here, but reverse swing being easier to get on the drier pitches of Pakistan, rather than away from home.

Waqar of the good era still managed an average of 22 away from home, compared to 16 at home.

Then the Waqar of the no-more-than-reasonable era (1994-2003) took wickets at 29 at home and 31 away.

I think too much can be read into it, personally.

Waqar was no one-trick pony and reverse-swing, while more useful in Pakistan due to the often lack of other helpful attacking methods, is quite attainable elsewhere so long as you work properly on the ball.

 

[social]

Obviously so, but both tend to have in common a lack of seam-friendliness in the pitches (and a lack of swing in the atmosphere). It's just in India that tended to mean spin-friendly decks and in Pakistan completely bowler-graveyard tracks.

I didn't mean to compare Imran and Waqar - simply point-out that both demonstrate that bowling well with the subcontinent your home as a seamer is far from impossible. Kapil probably would have been more successful had he been, as I say, English or Kiwi (only Angus Fraser, in all likelihood, matches his talent of the English players in the post-Snow\Willis era) but I don't like the "he was from the subcontinent so he was bound to have it hard as a seamer" line of thought, because some bowlers have disproved such a thing.

India, for a time, favoured conventional swing at certain grounds.

I think it was Damien Fleming (Aussie of the 90s) who declared that he actually enjoyed bowling there because of the movement available with the new ball.

Pakistan, possibly because of the abrasiveness in the pitches and the fact that many of the grounds were away from the sea, has never had that reputation. The fact that Imran, Waqar, Wasim, Marshall etc have had such success there only adds to their greatness.

BTW, as you know, "seam" is very different to "swing" of any variety. IMO, Fraser would've struggled as much as anyone on the sub-continent because he rarely moved the ball in the air and didnt have the pace to compensate for it.

 

[Richard]

You evidently don't recall the early Fraser. He was much, much more than a seam-bowler, and was many times compared to Ambrose for his ability to extract seam where it was available, and bowl cutters where it wasn't.

Post-hip-injury, he did indeed become reliant on the pitches, which was a great shame.

I've seen the ball swing conventionally in Pakistan. I've also seen plenty of reverse-swing in India. It depends greatly on the ball used (there are a heck of a lot of rubbish balls going around at the moment, in this country at least) and on the skill of the bowlers. If the fielding side is trying for reverse-swing, as we've seen, it's often possible to attain it as early as the 20th over or so. If they want the conventional sort, though, we can see it, with a decent ball, going on for ages.

The state of the outfield, of course, plays a part too.

 

[J.J.B.Lewis]

Viv Richard once said about him that the trick to tackle Kapil Dev is to play him like a spinner.

I think both of them were just jealous

Neither Imran nor Richards ever said such a thing.But this type of stuff is typical of yours & one can understand that its because whether they were jealous of Kapil or not, U r definately jealous of both Viv Richards & Imran.

 

[silentstriker]

I don't really understand why Imran Khan would be jealous of Kapil Dev, considering he was a better batsman, bowler and captain than Kapil. And Viv is all time great batsman by any account, so I don't see why he would be jealous either. I'd have to see proof.

 

[Richard]

Originally posted by rodzilla1010 aka nehrafan aka BingLeeElectric

You ARE joking, aren't you?

Do you have any intention on these forums other than to stir up **** by making both founded and unfounded accusations?

 

[adharcric]

I don't like the "he was from the subcontinent so he was bound to have it hard as a seamer" line of thought, because some bowlers have disproved such a thing.

That shows how great the likes of Wasim, Waqar and Imran were. Kapil is not being compared to them, nor did he have the same support that any of them did. You can't just say that bowling in certain conditions isn't difficult simply because a few all-time greats achieved success there.

 

[Jono]

I don't really understand why Imran Khan would be jealous of Kapil Dev, considering he was a better batsman, bowler and captain than Kapil. And Viv is all time great batsman by any account, so I don't see why he would be jealous either. I'd have to see proof.

The mo.

 

[Richard]

That shows how great the likes of Wasim, Waqar and Imran were. Kapil is not being compared to them, nor did he have the same support that any of them did. You can't just say that bowling in certain conditions isn't difficult simply because a few all-time greats achieved success there.

True, and...

It's quite remarkable how few seamers there are who've done well but not exceptionally in the subcontinent. They're either the Imran\Wasim brilliant or the Donald\McGrath visiting-smash-and-grabber, or they're poor\reasonable in the Kapil-Srinath\any-number-of-others mould.

Why that should be I simply haven't a clue.

 

[Swervy]

I don't really understand why Imran Khan would be jealous of Kapil Dev, considering he was a better batsman, bowler and captain than Kapil. And Viv is all time great batsman by any account, so I don't see why he would be jealous either. I'd have to see proof.

can i ask why you think Imran was a better captain than Dev

 

[Richard]

Because he did what hardly anyone else has ever done, and introduced calm into the panic-station known as the Pakistani cricket team.

Captaining India is a slightly less ominous task.

 

[Swervy]

Because he did what hardly anyone else has ever done, and introduced calm into the panic-station known as the Pakistani cricket team.

Captaining India is a slightly less ominous task.

For me captaincy can be split into two categories, man management and tactical awareness.

Yeah Imran did bring calm to the side (relative calm anyway), and obviously earned the respect of his fellow players, but tactically, I think he wasnt so hot.

Dev did something which completely shocked the cricketing world. Before the 83 World Cup, India had only won 9 games against the good teams (SL not included, they were pretty poor, and even then SL beat India before then as well). Absolutely no-one would ever have given India a snowballs chance in hell of winning that World Cup. The talent was average, there was no one day pedigree, and yet Dev lead them to what still remains the biggest World Cup shock ever. That was a MAJOR turning point not only for Indian cricket, but for World cricket.


Imran led an extremely talent. As people say about Waugh, and Ponting, when you have that talent, half the job is done for you. Now I would say Imran led a pkastan team that talent wise was probably as good as a number of the Australian teams of the last 10 years, but they ceratinly didnt have the same success as Australia.

My feeling is that maybe, Imran is slightly over rated as a skipper, and maybe Dev is slightly under rated (especially when given the respective ages of the two players when they were captains)

 

[Richard]

I don't feel Imran was overrated. Not many people I've heard discuss his captaincy even remotely consider tactical awareness. It's all about that most difficult of tasks, bringing calm to the Pakistani team.

Clive Lloyd (and before him Frank Worrell) were the same with West Indies, and Lloyd if not Worrell was certainly no tactical genius (nor did he need to be with the bowlers mostly at his disposal).

Simply put, captaincy of certain teams requires different skills - for Pakistan and West Indies, the man-management is infinately the more important - for England, for example, it's more of a level playing-field, which is why Michael Brearley was so exceptional.

I mean, Brearley is universally accepted to be the best England captain of all-time, Lloyd\Worrell West Indies', and Imran Pakistan's. Yet the reasons differ wildly. And rightly, too.

I didn't, obviously, watch WC83 but I've never heard Kapil's captaincy be spoken of in especially glowing terms. Could you explain what was so good about it?

 

[Swervy]

I don't feel Imran was overrated. Not many people I've heard discuss his captaincy even remotely consider tactical awareness. It's all about that most difficult of tasks, bringing calm to the Pakistani team.

Clive Lloyd (and before him Frank Worrell) were the same with West Indies, and Lloyd if not Worrell was certainly no tactical genius (nor did he need to be with the bowlers mostly at his disposal).

Simply put, captaincy of certain teams requires different skills - for Pakistan and West Indies, the man-management is infinately the more important - for England, for example, it's more of a level playing-field, which is why Michael Brearley was so exceptional.

I mean, Brearley is universally accepted to be the best England captain of all-time, Lloyd\Worrell West Indies', and Imran Pakistan's. Yet the reasons differ wildly. And rightly, too.

I didn't, obviously, watch WC83 but I've never heard Kapil's captaincy be spoken of in especially glowing terms. Could you explain what was so good about it?

well I am not saying Kapil Dev was a mastermind captain, however, I think it is easily forgotten what acheivements India made in the time Dev was a captain, including the World Cup in 83. Now, a lot of Imrans reputation (not all by any means) is based on Pakistans World Cup victory (cornered tigers etc). I never really recall Imrans captaincy prowess being mentioned too much before then , in fact, I have a few publications from a few years before the Wolrd Cup win, where his captiancy skills are most definatly questioned (I will try hunt them down).

And what must be remembered is the Pakistan team was so much more talented tahn the ones Dev had to skipper, and Dev did produce some good results , so captaincy wise, maybe Dev is just the forgotten man.

 

[Richard]

You didn't manage to answer the question. What exactly about Kapil's captaincy was so good? As I've said before, I'm reluctant to just presume: mediocre team won something, captaincy must have been brilliant.

As for Imran's captaincy being questioned - par-for-the-course, especially in Pakistan. Just look at the current Inzamam situation. Half the country think he's done a magnificent job, half the country think he should have been replaced 10 months ago.

 

[silentstriker]

Also, Pakistan managed to draw multiple series with WI where everyone else was getting their faces blown away. It was before my time, but I those series were under Imran's captaincy.

 

[Richard]

Multiple being 2?

And you missed the fact that around the same time ('86\87-'95) West Indies drew rather a lot of series and extremely fortuitously won a couple more?

Seriously, West Indies stopped being pre-eminant the way they had been '76-'86 after that '86 blackwash. Thereafter, their record read...

1-1 in Pakistan
1-1 in New Zealand
1-1 in India
1-1 at home to Pakistan (and damn near lost 0-2, were only saved by a 42* from a tailender)
4-0 in England, against a rabble, who had lost near enough everything from that blackwash onwards
3-1 in Australia, against not much more than a rabble, who had won 1 series in 5 years (that 1 very fortuitously)
3-0 at home to India - need no more explanation to your good self
2-1 at home to England but that's one of Test-cricket's great injustice series. At the very least it should have been 2-2, if not 2-1 to England
1-1 in Pakistan
2-1 at home to Australia, who were by then resurgent - one of 2 good performances of the period
2-2 in England
A one-off victory at home to South Africa - very, very fortunate after a final-innings collapse
2-1 in Australia - again, should have been 2-2, were very fortunate not to lose the First Test which was drawn; that's before we even mention the 1-run-victory game
2-0 at home to Pakistan
A one-off draw in Sri Lanka where only 3 days survived the weather
3-1 at home to England - just 1 dropped catch from 2-2 (the Ambrose running riot was enabled by said dropped catch)
1-1 in India
1-0 at home to a very, very average New Zealand
1-2 at home to Australia, though could quite easily have been 2-1 but for that dropped catch by Browne
2-2 in England
1-0 in New Zealand - read above New Zealand case
2-3 in Australia - beaten by the better side for the first time since '75\76
Only won 1-0 at home to India in 5 Tests. Appalling performance
Only won 1-0 at home to Sri Lanka in 2 Tests. Appalling performance.
Then it was the 3-0 in Pakistan and it was all downhill from there - very, very rapidly.

 

[Swervy]

You didn't manage to answer the question. What exactly about Kapil's captaincy was so good? As I've said before, I'm reluctant to just presume: mediocre team won something, captaincy must have been brilliant.

As for Imran's captaincy being questioned - par-for-the-course, especially in Pakistan. Just look at the current Inzamam situation. Half the country think he's done a magnificent job, half the country think he should have been replaced 10 months ago.

damn, I thought I had answered.

I am not saying Dev's captaincy was SO good, and I think from memory he was more of the inspirational lead by example type that Imran was.

I am just saying that Imran gets so much credit because he managed to gel a rather disparate and 'unruly' set of players, and I would be veering in my thoughts towards the reason for that being because he was such a good player as opposed to such a brilliant captain.

Given the huge (IMO) gulf between the two countries around that time in talent, the acheivements by both countries dont actually reflect such a great difference. Imrans rep had the foundations in one of the most talented squads to play the game for the last 40 years, Dev had nowhere near that, and yet both captains won a World Cup, and both teams hardly won much test wise under either capatin (Imrans superior W-L % can largely be put down to having a vastly superior bowling attack, Pakistan could actually bowl people out).

Imrans undoubted high point in tests was a drawn series in the WI, other than that, an Imran led Pakistan did nothing more than was expected of the talent available.

Under Dev , India overacheived, for what ever reason. Pakistan didnt over acheive under Imran.