The England Thread

[Prince EWS]

Bowled 4 overs, didn't he?

He was talking about his batting innings I'd say.

 

[Richard]

Bowled 4 overs, didn't he?

But I was talking about his part with the bat... as I say, IMO his bowling's about the level of Marcus Trescothick and Ricky Ponting.

 

[Richard]

Seems a little silly discussing this squad, because with our injury problems recently, we'll no doubt have about 5 different people out in the West Indies.

Vaughn (knees), Freddie(weight of expectation), Anderson (he is a crock), Nixon (arthritis) and Mahmood (sense of shame), all missing out for mine.

I really do think Broad and Loye will play a part.

If Broad does we could well lose every game very badly...

 

[BoyBrumby]

But I was talking about his part with the bat... as I say, IMO his bowling's about the level of Marcus Trescothick and Ricky Ponting.

No, he's a fair bit better than Tres, I'd say. Far more control. &, FWIW, I think Punter's seamers are underused. Looked halfway decent when he bowled in The Ashes in 2005. At least on a par with Hussey's.

 

[Richard]

Ponting maybe underused, but the words "Bopara" and "accurate" just don't go together, no matter what contextualisations you throw in.

Seriously - I've seen few seamers capable of bowling as terribly and getting as many wickets with utterly rubbish deliveries as our Ravinder.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Ponting maybe underused, but the words "Bopara" and "accurate" just don't go together, no matter what contextualisations you throw in.

Seriously - I've seen few seamers capable of bowling as terribly and getting as many wickets with utterly rubbish deliveries as our Ravinder.

Mark Butcher?

& I checked my post; no mention of the word "accurate" at all.

 

[Prince EWS]

Mark Butcher?

& I checked my post; no mention of the word "accurate" at all.

Butcher swung the ball at least. I've only seen Bopara bowl about 5 overs with an old white ball but I didn't see any swing there, nor did I see an action which suggested it might exist in better conditions.

 

[Richard]

Mark Butcher?

Butcher also got wickets with good balls.

& I checked my post; no mention of the word "accurate" at all.

It's implied in the "control" part.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Butcher swung the ball at least. I've only seen Bopara bowl about 5 overs with an old white ball but I didn't see any swing there, nor did I see an action which suggested it might exist in better conditions.

Different sorts of bowlers, yes. Bopara more wicket-to-wicket; he just puts the ball there & waits for a mistake (like Hussey's under edge). Butcher took most of his wickets with a cunning combination of medium paced wides & long-hops.

I'm certainly not talking Bopara's dobbers up at all here, btw, just answering Richard's Q.

 

[Prince EWS]

Different sorts of bowlers, yes. Bopara more wicket-to-wicket; he just puts the ball there & waits for a mistake (like Hussey's under edge). Butcher took most of his wickets with a cunning combination of medium paced wides & long-hops.

I'm certainly not talking Bopara's dobbers up at all here, btw, just answering Richard's Q.

Yeah, but balls that genuinely beat the batsmen with swing are inheriantly going to better than balls that are just put there waiting for a mistake. The former is credit to the bowler, the latter is the fault of the batsman.

 

[tooextracool]

Why?.What has Broad done to deserve to be ahead of Mahmood,Anderson,Plunkett and Lewis for a seamers berth.Allright he's not played a game but your not going to take someone to the WC who has not played a game in the CB series.Bopara is an exception and I was surprised he was included.

what has mahmood ever done to deserve selection over my rubbish bin?

 

[Prince EWS]

what has mahmood ever done to deserve selection over my rubbish bin?

He bowls a better slower ball than your rubbish bin.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Yeah, but balls that genuinely beat the batsmen with swing are inheriantly going to better than balls that are just put there waiting for a mistake. The former is credit to the bowler, the latter is the fault of the batsman.

True, but the nature of the beast that in one-day cricket means that batsmen have an imperative to score runs more briskly than they do in the longer version of the game so they are more likely to make those mistakes.

It's why a bowler like Collingwood, who is as next to useless in tests as makes no odds (one wicket for 200+ runs in 20-ish tests IIRC), can be a handy option in ODIs, even if most of his wickets will come from the batters' errors.

Bopara will never be a bowler a captain will turn to for a wicket, he'll be at best a fill-in in the 15-40 over period when the bowling side wants to get rid of a few overs for not too many runs.

 

[Richard]

He bowls a better slower ball than your rubbish bin.

Dilhara Fernando bowls just about the best slower-ball ever bowled.

He's still possibly the worst cricketer ever to play 100 ODIs, though.

 

[tooextracool]

The biggest problem recently was they produce shockingly bad batting displays. He does nothing whatsoever to stop that happening - England improved because Collingwood scored a hatful of runs and some of the others hung around and did the basics first before trying anything fancy.

Loye is not ODI class. that i am convinced off. However it would take a fool to think that he hasnt added something to this England side. Fact is that over the last few years we've ended up being 20 odd after 10 overs almost every time Trescothick hasnt played, and its even more likely to happen with Strauss, vaughan and joyce batting in the top 3. at least with loye in the side,even if he only gets 30 odd, hes at least likely to give us a 4-5 run per over start in the first 10 overs than any of the other players.
and Boparas selection could be described as being nothing short of downright idiotic. Only a fool would suggest that we need more middle order all rounders/bits and pieces players when you have flintoff, dalrymple and collingwood.

 

[Richard]

Different sorts of bowlers, yes. Bopara more wicket-to-wicket; he just puts the ball there & waits for a mistake (like Hussey's under edge).

I dunno what you've been watching but Bopara is about the worst example you could possibly wish for of a wicket-to-wicket bowler. One of the most wayward seamers ever, and gets so many wickets with rubbish deliveries (such as the Hussey one).

Butcher took most of his wickets with a cunning combination of medium paced wides & long-hops.

No, he took some with said deliveries and others with booming inswingers.

 

[Prince EWS]

True, but the nature of the beast that in one-day cricket means that batsmen have an imperative to score runs more briskly than they do in the longer version of the game so they are more likely to make those mistakes.

It's why a bowler like Collingwood, who is as next to useless in tests as makes no odds (one wicket for 200+ runs in 20-ish tests IIRC), can be a handy option in ODIs, even if most of his wickets will come from the batters' errors.

Bopara will never be a bowler a captain will turn to for a wicket, he'll be at best a fill-in in the 15-40 over period when the bowling side wants to get rid of a few overs for not too many runs.

Yeah, I wasn't arguing his bowling effectiveness - just that, from first look, I'd make a guess to suggest that Butcher would have taken a great percentage of "good ball wickets" than Bopara.

Seriously - I've seen few seamers capable of bowling as terribly and getting as many wickets with utterly rubbish deliveries as our Ravinder.

Mark Butcher?

 

[tooextracool]

He bowls a better slower ball than your rubbish bin.

you think so? his slower ball might have caused a few problems but almost everytime,even when it dismissed hayden and gichrist, it was spotted.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I dunno what you've been watching but Bopara is about the worst example you could possibly wish for of a wicket-to-wicket bowler. One of the most wayward seamers ever, and gets so many wickets with rubbish deliveries (such as the Hussey one).

How would you describe it then? Steepling bounce from short of a length? Pitched up for the swing?

 

[tooextracool]

Despite Vaughan's opening credentials being thoroughly dubious and Joyce having never been an opener in his 28-year-old life?

except for the WI A tour where he scored a hatful of runs?