***Official*** Commonwealth Bank Tri-Series

[pup11]

Look guys we can talk all we want about who is better vettori or hogg, but vettori doesn't play for australia hogg does and if australians are selecting a spinner for the world cup he should be the no.1 pick.

 

[Fiery]

Look guys we can talk all we want about who is better vettori or hogg, but vettori doesn't play for australia hogg does and if australians are selecting a spinner for the world cup he should be the no.1 pick.

This is an international forum pup

 

[Zinzan]

Hogg's average is a fair bit lower in ODIs. And incidentally, Hogg plays his FC cricket at the WACA, which until the last two years or so was one of the worst pitches in the world for spin bowling. Warne averaged about 40 there in test matches. There's no doubt Vettori is a better spinner in 4 and 5 day cricket, but the pitches thing isn't a great argument.

Anyway, I'd probably them about equal in ODIs. Vettori generally keeps it a bit tighter through the middle overs and is a better batsman, but Hogg is more of a wicket taker. His wickets per match ratio is great, and that's despite bowling less overs per game than other spinners. By way of comparison, Hogg takes 1.24 wickets per match compared to Harbhajan's 1.17 and Vettori's 0.98. Only Murali's 1.51 is better.

Overall he has 112 wickets @ 27 with an ER of 4.48, which is very good indeed. Vettori has 183 wickets @ 33.16 with an ER of 4.19

Vettori is a definately a better oneday bowler than Hogg. You've failed to pick up on a few other factors here and instead just compared their oneday records.

Firstly, Vettori has been playing ODI's for about 8 years. It wasn't that long ago that his ODI economy was above 4.5, so to get it down to 4.18 is a good indication of what an effective an ODI bowler he has been in the last 3-4 years. If someone can find his economy rate in this period, i'd luv to see it.

The other point you have missed is that Vettori bowls on ANY wicket as he plays in every game he is fit for new Zealand. Whereas Hogg (whilst he hasn't had the opportunities) has generally been selected on spinners decks (not always).

Hogg, like all Australians (through no fault of his own), has obviously never had to bowl to the best ODI side in the world, and this must be taken into consideration when comparing records.

Vettori would be a in most peoples World XI ODI side at the moment. It would be a joke to suggest Hogg would.

Food for thought.

I generally respect your posts FaaipDeOiad, as they are generally thoughtful and well written, but I've always found you to be biased to the Australian team. Usually you are accurate, but i think sometimes your green and gold glasses distort your vision. This is an example of that.

 

[pup11]

Princey i agree with your point, but aussies could have used CB series in a much better way. You have got to agree even if they would have experimented with a few players here and there they still would have won games. And now if they go to WI and there quickes get hammered and then they play hogg in the XI, and without any match practice how will he straight away start performing.

 

[Zinzan]

Keep showing that blind faith in them pup. Anyway...you wanted a list? Here you are: Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, New Zealand, West Indies.

Rubbish, All of the above sides would have been smashed 5-0 in that series against Aust, especially when you consider how focused and fired up they were for that series.

I'm not 100% convinced that England are definately the no.2 test side still, but until they play someone else, its fair to suggest they are IMO.

To suggest our NZ test team is better than England at the moment is an absolute joke. I'm assuming you were just trying to get up the others posters nose

 

[pup11]

And as for balance of your team, it can be as good or as bad as your players perform. You just can't say ok this working for us now so it would work for us in the future too. I think in odi cricket flexibility and adaptability are very important. If playing 4 quickes and 2 part-time spinners was there plan A, they should have also worked on a plan B which they haven't done yet.

 

[pup11]

As for vettori v/s hogg, take one thing in account vettori plays in every game that the Kiwis play in you can't say that about hogg. Its a fact the more a spinner bowls the better he gets. The other thing is hogg has never been given fair treatment by ponting, on a lot of occasions he doesn't even make him bowl his 10 overs , so considering all this whatever hogg has done is better than you expect.

 

[Prince EWS]

I don't actually disagree that Hogg benefits from the situations he bowls in with regard to wicket taking, and that people generally try and see Vettori off by comparison. But really, the difference between their economy rates isn't all that stark. If Vettori was a much better bowler than Hogg in ODIs but Hogg got a lot of wickets from people attacking him, I'd expect Hogg to have a higher economy rate than 4.48 or so, or at least for the gap between the two to be bigger. Hogg is very good at getting batsmen out who are looking to go after him though, and he'll quite regularly come on in the middle overs and take a couple of important wickets.

Hogg would certainly take less wickets if people didn't look to go after him as they do, but it's a measure of his quality as an ODI bowler that he is as economical as he is, despite generally being attacked more than someone like Vettori. I'd rate them fairly comparable, though obviously who you'd rather have bowling would depend on the game situation and so on.

Having said that, Hogg probably benefits a bit more from playing the weaker ODI nations, with a great record against Bangladesh and so on. I daresay if you took those countries out, the gap between them average-wise would drop a bit.

The last match Hogg played in is an example of yet another situation I hadn't thought of, too. England were absolutely gone by the time Hogg bowled and he picked up wickets and a low economy rate because he was bowling to the tail in a hopeless situation for the opposition. NZ's opening bowlers don't skittle the opposition top order very often so Vettori wouldn't find himself very much if at all.

And, as was mentioned, Vettori has improved out of sight in the second half of his ODI career.

They are closer than a lot of people would be willing to admit and they are indeed comparable - I'd still take Vettori given the choice though.

 

[Zinzan]

As for vettori v/s hogg, take one thing in account vettori plays in every game that the Kiwis play in you can't say that about hogg. Its a fact the more a spinner bowls the better he gets. The other thing is hogg has never been given fair treatment by ponting, on a lot of occasions he doesn't even make him bowl his 10 overs , so considering all this whatever hogg has done is better than you expect.

Possibly, but a lot of assumptions there.There is no doubt Hogg hasn't had the opportunites, but Vettori has been the most effective ODI spinner after Murali in the last 2-3 years period and a point that is often overlooked is that Vettori's home conditions favour seam and not spin, even more so than australian conditions.

 

[Steulen]

How many times must the whole balance thing be explained to you? I'm sure the selectors are more than impressed with Hogg's stats, but given Johnson's stats are also very impressive, and the fact that three of the top 7 bowl spin and none of them bowl pace, they've opted for Johnson more often than not.

Your argument is not entirely valid as both Symonds and Hussey can bowl medium pace.

 

[Prince EWS]

Your argument is not entirely valid as both Symonds and Hussey can bowl medium pace.

Hussey and Symonds's mediums aren't even half as good as Symonds's and Clarke's spinners though. Symonds rarely bowls medium pace in one day matches - even when it would suit the balance of the side to bowl meds, he still bowls offies.

I don't consider it "pace" anyway by any stretch of the imagination. Johnson, Lee, Bracken, McGrath and Watson bowl pace. Hussey bowls change-up medium pies.

 

[Steulen]

Hussey and Symonds's mediums aren't even half as good as Symonds's and Clarke's spinners though. Symonds rarely bowls medium pace in one day matches - even when it would suit the balance of the side to bowl meds, he still bowls offies.

I don't consider it "pace" anyway by any stretch of the imagination. Johnson, Lee, Bracken, McGrath and Watson bowl pace. Hussey bowls change-up medium pies.

Still, back in the old days when England weren't completely crap, Collingwood was a useful fifth bowler with medium pies. India do the same with Tendulkar and Ganguly, South Africa use Kemp, New Zealand use everyone willing to wear black. If Hogg demanded inclusion, Symonds and Hussey would provide the required balance in the seam-up department.

Hussey was even used as a death bowler in England last year, winning a tense game by being accurate and hard to get away, IIRC.


I agree he's a pie thrower, though .

 

[pup11]

Hey pricey mate what do you think aussies have used the CB series well enough.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Hussey and Symonds's mediums aren't even half as good as Symonds's and Clarke's spinners though. Symonds rarely bowls medium pace in one day matches - even when it would suit the balance of the side to bowl meds, he still bowls offies.

I don't consider it "pace" anyway by any stretch of the imagination. Johnson, Lee, Bracken, McGrath and Watson bowl pace. Hussey bowls change-up medium pies.

Symonds mediums are pretty good on a slow track, though if there's any turn he'll usually bowl offies anyway. In New Zealand and England for instance, he's bowled good spells of medium pace and been very hard to get away. He's a much better bowler for the fact that he can bowl offies as well, because he doesn't do what Astle did and bowl a great 10 overs one game and be utterly hopeless for the next five.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Re: Hogg vs Vettori, I actually didn't realise how much better Vettori's record was in recent times. I knew it had improved, but Hogg's has improved as well (75 wickets @ 23.63 in his last 52 games) so I discounted it for the most part. He's certainly been much better in recent times though, so I'll stand corrected on that.

Hogg's average is still better in recent times, but his economy is up above 4.5 in that same period of 50 odd games, so Vettori's definitely ahead of him.

 

[Prince EWS]

Still, back in the old days when England weren't completely crap, Collingwood was a useful fifth bowler with medium pies.

How often did he bowl second change though? Very rarely bordering on never until just recently, I'd imagine - Flintoff would play with three specialist seamers more often than not. There's also the fact that Collingwood is a far more accurate bowler than Hussey anyway and has much greater variation.

You could get away with it if you needed to, but it's obviously not desirable. There is negliable difference between Hogg and Johnson as ODI bowlers at this stage - in fact many would argue Johnson was superior - and having Clarke/Symonds/White bowl 10 overs of spin between them in the 25-35 over period makes much more sense than having Michael Hussey bowl inside the first 20 overs and then still having to make up 5 overs of part-time spin in the middle overs somewhere bowling in tandem with Brad Hogg as well.

Watson's return gives the selection of Hogg much more chance and reasoning, but at this stage, as unfair as it is to Hogg, he's not the best option in accordance with the balance of the side.

 

[Zinzan]

Re: Hogg vs Vettori, I actually didn't realise how much better Vettori's record was in recent times. I knew it had improved, but Hogg's has improved as well (75 wickets @ 23.63 in his last 52 games) so I discounted it for the most part. He's certainly been much better in recent times though, so I'll stand corrected on that.

Hogg's average is still better in recent times, but his economy is up above 4.5 in that same period of 50 odd games, so Vettori's definitely ahead of him.

Good on you dude, takes a real man to concede when he is wrong

 

[howardj]

Australia will be a stronger team with Watson at 4 and Hussey at 7 than the other way around, most of the time. If Australia are 2/200 after 40, obviously Hussey would be a better choice that Watson, and that's when you'd change the order, but Watson's going to perform a lot better with time to build an innings, while Hussey is perfectly capable in any situation. You'd have a point if Watson was an average batsman in general, but he's clearly not. He's a very successful batsman in the top order but struggles in the late overs when not set, while Hussey averages 80 batting at 6 and 7.

.

Watson's an unproven player in the top order in International cricket. That Hussey averages 80 batting at six or seven is far less relevant than the number of balls he faces batting down that low. Fair enough if he's batting down that low in deference to proven players like Clarke or Ponting - but not Watson. With a World Cup around the corner he doesn't deserve to take up one of the prime batting spots in the order, just because he is not comfortable during the 15-20 balls you get to face at number seven.

 

[pup11]

Yeah princey you talk about balance of the side, if these part-time spinners start going for plenty or the four seamers get whacked then, what plan B does australia have?

 

[howardj]

White gives no balance to our XI, batting as he is at number seven and not bowling.