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Why do Aussies hate murili?

Majin

International Debutant
I don't see why so many people moan about his action, the governing bodies of Cricket have tested it time and again, and the man is still playing cricket, so really there's nothing to moan about.

It's all moot anyway, everyone knows Kumble is better than both of them. :ph34r:
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
It's because he has had his action queried countless times - he's been called for chucking....it's not a once off - there hasn't been a year go by in his career where people haven't queried his action. He has never had his action officially cleared - his doosra has always been judged dodgy, his normal off spinner only slightly less dodgy...no matter how many times he wants to go down and bowl 3 overs at 80% at some testing factilities...with his own coach as the offical who judges whether his bowling is reprasentative of what would happen in test.. ..it's just not going to silence the critics. It's never reprasentative of how he's bowling 30 overs into his spell at 100%. The last testing said his doosra was breaking the law....he was warned not to bowl it, yet he still bowls it (number one wicket taking ball) and everyone is just a little tired of going through the process again. He takes countless wickets against minnows, he's not tough enough to make it out to Australia, he struggles against australia, which is the true test of a champion bowler, and he's just plain unexciting guy. So the argument is that he has a birth defect - even so, he is doing something that other people can't and aren't allowed to - poeple have emulated his action (Botha) and too have been called for chucking. That's why he'll never be judged as a good bowler in Australia. I think it's fair enough - too many questions and unfortunately for him, his name will always have an asterix next to it with the label "chucker" in the footnotes.
Not for a spin bowler it isn't.
 

JBH001

International Regular
Moreover, he has not struggled against Australia.

His overall statistics against Australia are very good - it is only the 3 tests against Australia in Australia (2 for SL & 1 for ICC XI) that count against him. And by the by, not everyone thinks he chucks.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
In Australia he's been smashed to bits. In Sri Lanka he holds his own, just a tad over his career figures.
 

Josh

International Regular
I don't see why so many people moan about his action, the governing bodies of Cricket have tested it time and again, and the man is still playing cricket, so really there's nothing to moan about.

It's all moot anyway, everyone knows Kumble is better than both of them. :ph34r:
Only because they adjusted the rules to keep him playing and avoid further controversy.
 

legglancer12

School Boy/Girl Captain
It's because he has had his action queried countless times - he's been called for chucking....it's not a once off - there hasn't been a year go by in his career where people haven't queried his action. He has never had his action officially cleared - his doosra has always been judged dodgy, his normal off spinner only slightly less dodgy...no matter how many times he wants to go down and bowl 3 overs at 80% at some testing factilities...with his own coach as the offical who judges whether his bowling is reprasentative of what would happen in test.. ..it's just not going to silence the critics. It's never reprasentative of how he's bowling 30 overs into his spell at 100%. The last testing said his doosra was breaking the law....he was warned not to bowl it, yet he still bowls it (number one wicket taking ball) and everyone is just a little tired of going through the process again. He takes countless wickets against minnows, he's not tough enough to make it out to Australia, he struggles against australia, which is the true test of a champion bowler, and he's just plain unexciting guy. So the argument is that he has a birth defect - even so, he is doing something that other people can't and aren't allowed to - poeple have emulated his action (Botha) and too have been called for chucking. That's why he'll never be judged as a good bowler in Australia. I think it's fair enough - too many questions and unfortunately for him, his name will always have an asterix next to it with the label "chucker" in the footnotes.
Excellent ! keep making up your own facts :laugh:
 

C_C

International Captain
We don't hate the guy personally but we DO think that he chucks. End of story.
I dont like to contemplate the idea(primarily out of reverence for the more enlightened aussie posters here- you dont seem to be one of them) that the Aussie cricketing public in general, is singularly the most uneducated and boneheaded in matters of cricket but prevalence of such opinions leaves me no other choice.
 
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C_C

International Captain
They could both take a cue from Lara and Tendulkar who have conducted themselves with lots of class and grace even though theirs is as fierce a rivalry as Murali/Warne has been, at least amongst the fans.
Actually, it is a valid point but i'd like to pontificate a bit on it. In my opinion, Tendulkar's attitude towards the media is the best attitude i've ever seen in a sportsman ( very much similar, i am told, with another non-controversial sporting icon : Wayne Gretsky). He is as boring as it gets but primarily because Tendulkar seems to be allergic to giving the media even the tiniest of scoops. The same monotonous response where he praises everyone, including Boycott's granny as an 'excellent cricketer'.
And secondly, Lara and Tendulkar are on good terms at a personal level - they are friends and this has been commented upon by several people who are close to Lara and Tendulkar. While in Warne and Murali's case, i dont think the 'friendship' is really anything more than politeness in face of the media. I don't think Murali rushed in to phone Warne overseas to congratulate him for his 700 or Warne gave Murali a call on his cell for taking the most 10-fers. However, whenever Lara or Tendulkar topple a major milestone ( such as most tons or highest indiv. score), the other one invariably congratulates the record breaker personally.
 

readie

State Regular
The Reason Many Australians Hate Murali, is because of multiple reasons

1. the majority of Aussies think he chucks

2. A Lot of us can't handle the fact that one day he will break warnies Test Wicket Record.

3.We find it hard to swallow because he has had pitches doctored for him almost all his career
4. He had a very weak bowling attack in support leaving him more overs and more wickets for him to take. I Mean Take out Chaminda Vaas and you have a bowling attack poorer than a County Or State Cricket side. Personally I think this would make it Harder to get wickets because of a lack of bowling partnerships, but you're general boozed-up Australian has-been park cricketer doesn't think about That.

P.S. I am Australian
 

C_C

International Captain
The Reason Many Australians Hate Murali, is because of multiple reasons

1. the majority of Aussies think he chucks
As i said, i don't like to contemplate the idea that the majority of Aussie cricket fans are singularly uneducated and pigheaded about cricketing rules and biomechanical facts. But the abovementioned line leaves no other avenue for conclusion regarding the Aussie fans - for there is absolutely no wiggle room in this- it has been proven over and over that Murali does not chuck and if he chucks, so does McGrath,Warne, Lillee and every Aussie who's ever bowled a single ball at any level of cricket. I've explained this before patiently drawing on my understanding of sciences and seeing that reasoning or facts are not going to make an impact on the ones who arn't open to or well versed in them, i am not very inclined to try and educate people who arnt and refuse to be educated.

But if the majority of Aussies think Murali is a chucker, i am sorry to say, it reflects rather poorly on the understanding of the rules and biomechanics by these so-called 'majority of Aussies'.

2. A Lot of us can't handle the fact that one day he will break warnies Test Wicket Record.
Spot on. Warne is an alltime great bowler and would probably be the primier spinner, without question, in any other era. He just had the misfortune of having his playing career coincide with one who's an even more brilliant spinner. It would be similar if Kapil, Imran, Botham, Hadlee, etc. had their playing careers coincide with Sobers or if Tendulkar/Lara were born around the same time as Bradman. This is the luck of the draw. Nothing more.

3.We find it hard to swallow because he has had pitches doctored for him almost all his career
Do you also find it hard to swallow then that Lillee had pitches 'doctored' for him too and that his entire record is based on bowling in largely favourable conditions explicitly suited for pace bowlers ? I have seen many Aussies bring up this 'pitch factor' when comparing Warne and Murali but never have i heard the same logic and standard be held for pacers- for if this whole line of 'warne-bowls-on-less-spin friendly-wickets-murali-on-pitches-doctored-for-him-boo-f*eakin-hoo' is true, then this axiom, when applied to fast bowlers would mean that Akram, Younis, Imran, etc. are easily better than Lillee-McGrath-Lindwall, etc. Concede one or the other. One cannot logically bring up this pitch factor when comparing Warne-Murali but totally ignore the very same pitch factor when comparing pacers. So if Warne is indeed better in your books for bowling on less 'friendly' conditions, consistency and neutrality demands that you also consider Akram,Younis,Imran to be superior to any Aussie pacer, Vaas to be superior to Gillespie, etc etc.


4. He had a very weak bowling attack in support leaving him more overs and more wickets for him to take. I Mean Take out Chaminda Vaas and you have a bowling attack poorer than a County Or State Cricket side. Personally I think this would make it Harder to get wickets because of a lack of bowling partnerships, but you're general boozed-up Australian has-been park cricketer doesn't think about That.

P.S. I am Australian

This argument has ZERO logic associated with it.
If you ask any batsman worth his salt-any- they'll tell you that they'd much rather face one Murali and three other no-names than four Kumbles ; one McGrath and three of us from cricketweb than four Gillespies, etc etc. Why ? Simply because if you have only ONE bowler, especially in tests, the teams can afford to play them out and wait for the other three no-hopers to come on and whack them for runs. If you are confronted with the four-prong of the windies, you are well and truely cooked since if you play off Marshall, Holding will be galloping in at you - play out holding too and Garner will choke you- play out Garner and then Roberts will maim you- play him out too and you will get maybe 5-10 runs when Viv finally turns his arm over and after 3 days, you'd be 20/0. It is this very 'constant pressure' that results in a bunch of 3-33 kind of hauls instead of 5-80 that you most often see from the 'lone gunmen' bowlers.
The logical answer (and one that holds true more often than not) is that if you have a better attack to back you up, you will take less wickets but have a better average. If you are the solitary 'Paddles', you would end up taking more wicket/matches (since less competition for wickets) but also leak runs as batsmen will not be forced to chance their arms against you (ie, milked and 'be on the defensive against you'). Anybody who's bowled competetively even at club levels and isnt absolutely trash (judged by whatever standard they are playing at) will know that they'd rather have another one or two good bowlers to keep pressurising the batsmen instead of all the work falling on you and the batsmen are forced to play your balls on merit rather than going on the forward defensive even before the ball has left your hand.

The very fact that Murali, depsite having less than half the support of Warne, sports a significantly better average(and the average is better even without the minnows) is reason enough for me to rate Murali ahead. Not to mention, Murali has less 'off days' than Warne.

Oh another thing- Murali averages better than Warne in away tests.
 
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MinorThreat

Cricket Spectator
i'll tell you why australia hates murali cause we are a bunch of racist bastards

P.S i am australian and i regard murali as a great bowler
 

Butterteeth

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
I dont like to contemplate the idea(primarily out of reverence for the more enlightened aussie posters here- you dont seem to be one of them) that the Aussie cricketing public in general, is singularly the most uneducated and boneheaded in matters of cricket but prevalence of such opinions leaves me no other choice.
Well this thread has certainly got the sweeping generalisation meter going off the scale. Why even the very thread topic kicks off with one.

Well speaking as one of the Australian cricketing public (well an Australian cricket fan at least) and so therefore boneheaded and uneducated in matters of cricket, I thought I might add my 2 cents worth - I swore I would never get involved in a Murali debate but here we go.....

I don't think Australians hate Murali. Some do but I think you'll find the majority don't.
Having said that, I also doubt that he would find himself on too many 'favourite cricketer lists' compiled by Australians. And why?

Well, in trying to avoid the aforementioned 'sweeping generalisations', I can only give my opinion - and I am not a huge fan of Murali. That doesn't mean I don't think he is a great bowler though. It was his attitude in declaring that he would never tour Australia again because the fans didn't show him respect that coloured my opinion. At the time, I saw that as a sign of a player who saw himself as being bigger than the game and more important than his team. So the crowds called 'No ball' when he bowled? Please...he is a professional sports person. What the crowds say to him should be irrelevant. Crowds say all sorts of things (I've heard some doozies). And calling 'No ball' is NOT rascist. Rascism doesn't even enter into it. If he was being racially abused, then it might be different but I don't believe he ever complained about that (not that it may not have occurred - we seem to be breeding a redneck element in Australia at the moment).

To his credit he came here for the ICC Super Series and I really hope he will tour next year. We can only hope - I don't know what his latest whim is.

Oh and for those who say he has never chucked - well under the old laws, his doosra was deemed illegal. Thats a fact. Its fine under the new laws - changes that probably made the policing of bowling actions easier (but I fear may result in kiddies developing poor actions).

So there are some bone headed comments for you from an uneducated Australian cricket fan.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
Oh another thing- Murali averages better than Warne in away tests.
Haha he's back, but as usual he's gone over the top and made a boo boo. No, Warne is better in away tests. And from your argument you're saying that when one person says Warne took wickets in harder locations - which is logical - we also have to accept that Imran and co are better than Hadlee and co. Well, yes, based on that they ARE better. So then, you must agree with this point - regardless of whether someone else does or not.

And that's not the only point to look into to compare the two. Murali's home record is vastly superior to his away form. It shows quite clearly how much playing more than half his games at home has helped him. I also made a statistically comparison swapping the two's home records - as if Shane's home was Sri Lanka and Murali's was Australia. And I actually gave Murali the benefit in BOTH areas because Warne has a better record in Sri Lanka than Murali and ALSO a better record than Murali in Australia. Warne came out quite ahead.

Also, in regards to averages and strike rates and such I refer to Francis' posts:

http://forum.cricketweb.net/showthread.php?p=1016899#post1016899
In my opinion, no. But it doesn't matter who you think the world's best bowler is, he's bloody close to whoever is your choice. Stats mean very little when it comes to Murali for me. I've seen games where Murali has gotten five wickets and won the game for Sri Lanka, and I've seen games where he's bowled 90 overs and gotten more wickets, but took so long that it didn't impact the game. What I'm trying to say is, sometimes Murali's been more effective when statistically he hasn't lowered his average and strike-rate. And I've seen games where he's bowled marathon spells and gotten a load of wicket, but it took so incredibly long it didn't impact on the game enough.

I'm seen a hoard of games where Murali hasn't gotten wickets in the first 20 or even 30 overs, but when he's bowled 80 overs or so he may end up with nine wickets, which actually improves his strike-rate! I'm not knocking getting nine wickets, and bowling as long as he does is astonishing, but it's a long period of time for the opposition to take control and win the game.

It's just something ironic I've noticed. Murali has had great games, and more impacting performances when he's taken a simple fiver for over 100 runs than one of his long marathoon spells where get gets eight. It's something I think a lot of cricket fans should ponder: How much do stats really mean? They're just ratios. I find it rather silly when people say stuff like, "Ambrose is better than McGrath because he has a better average" when McGrath is one run behind Ambrose in average.

Murali's a mortal lock for me as one of the five best bowlers in cricket history. Where in that five? I don't quite know, but he's not number one for me. If he is for you, more power to you. I just hope you decision isn't based entirely on stats.
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showthread.php?p=1016904#post1016904
Murali averages around 56 with the strike-rate doesn't he?

He's bowled 80 over spells before and gotten nine wickets... that lowers his strike rate. (53.33)

He's bowled 60 over spells before and taken seven wickets... that lowers his strike rate.(51.42)

Then there are games where he's been more successful in Sri Lanka winning the game. Where he might take:

5 wickets from 50 overs, which gives him a strike-rate of around 60.

I know it may not make sense immediately. But getting the wickets needed ten overs more quickly, despite getting less wickets, can save an entire sessions-worth of runs.
Also an interesting post to ponder about as well:

http://forum.cricketweb.net/showthread.php?p=1017398#post1017398
Statistics are never enough. If they were Ponting would be better than Tendulkar and Lara as his average is higher and he's almost scored as many centuries as them, in less innings. People immediately point to the fact that he's had easier opposition with no Allan Donald, Wasim Akram, Curtley Amrbose etc. They also talk about pitch conditions, which I sort of agree on.

I've once considered writing a post where I list 100 reasons why stats shouldn't be trusted, but it would take too long. But in every cricket game, doesn't matter who plays, I find something that skewers stats. Averages aren't an authority on who's the best, they're just something someone thought of to keep track on one, of many, aspects of the game.

Off the top of my head you have to consider:

*Quality of competition
*Quality of the pitch
*How many times did the bowler beat the edge?
*Did the batsman do something wreckless that gave a cheap wicket.
*What scenario is the bowler in? Is he under pressure, or is the batsman under pressure?
*Did he gets wickets early on, or pad them up as time goes on?
*Are the other bowlers stealing wickets?
*Did he get a bad umpire decision?
*Did he just have bad luck in not getting good results?
*Was it the tail enders?
*Were the tail enders hard to dismiss and thus shouldn't be discounted?
*How wrecked is the ball?
*Did the captain give the bowler a chance with the ball?
*Were there any dropped catches?
*Was the bowler over-bowled (Dennis Lillee)?
*Did he improve his average by bowling a short spell and getting three quick wickets when a long spell would have been harder?
*Was the long spell helpful for his stats, but bad for his team as it took so long?
*Is he taking wickets at the right moment, when a wicket is really needed?

I'd better stop, but I swear I could get 50 reasons why bowling stats shouldn't be trusted and 50 reasons why batting stats shouldn't be trusted.

So how do we know who the best is? Simple, by watching them and not being guided by stats. Testimony is always the best guide too. Andrew Flintoff is the best example in my opinion. During the last Ashes his stats were good, but his performance was better because of how he impacted games. In the second test, he formed a 50-run partnership with Simon Jones that proved two runs too much for Australia. That was an amazing knock when England were collapsing, and the stats will only say he made a 50, when he saved the game and kept the series alive.

Stats are just ratios that don't take into account many, many different scenarios, and even when you hear about these scenarios, you can't judge because you didn't see the match itself.

I think it's silly an pedantic how some people will talk about the smallest different in average as proof one is better than the other, when just a few different scenarios would change all those silly little numbers.It's a famous saying: "There's lies, damn lies and then there's statistics."
 
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C_C

International Captain
No, Warne is better in away tests
As of 1st Jan, 2007:

Warne away: 73 mat,362wkts@25.50 b-b: 7/165 st/r:56.7 5-fers:20 10-fers: 5

Murali away: 49 mat 268wkts@24.89 b-b: 9/65 st/r: 57.9 5-fers:20 10-fers: 6

Any questions ?

And that's not the only point to look into to compare the two. Murali's home record is vastly superior to his away form. It shows quite clearly how much playing more than half his games at home has helped him.
Irrelevant.
in absolute comparisons(ie,who's better away from home,strictly numbers-wise), it doesnt matter if Murali is vastly superior at home. If I, as a bowler, average 15 at home and 20 away and you average 22 at home and 23 away, i am better. End of story.

Also, in regards to averages and strike rates and such I refer to Francis' posts:
I expect you to miss the larger picture as usual.
Let me break it down for you : Murali is more consistent than Warne. Murali doesnt have an excellent(let alone the world's best) pace attack to soften up the batting lineup before he even has a bowl ala Warne. Batsmen can afford to stone-wall him and often do. He is quite simply, much more accomplished-both in ODIs and Tests- against the side against whom all spinners are measured: India. He has more wickets, better average, better strike rate and the *only* thing that counts against him is the fact that his home pitches suit him a tad more.And frankly,if you were a bowler with a brain, you'd rather be a part of a better attack than get 2-3 extra pitches that suits you while doing all the donkey-***-lion's work. Okay, so murali doesnt 'whitewash' Warne in all the relevant criterias. However, anyone with a sense of neutrality and common sense can see that Murali is, easily i might add- the supreme spinner the world has ever seen.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
As of 1st Jan, 2007:

Warne away: 73 mat,362wkts@25.50 b-b: 7/165 st/r:56.7 5-fers:20 10-fers: 5

Murali away: 49 mat 268wkts@24.89 b-b: 9/65 st/r: 57.9 5-fers:20 10-fers: 6

Any questions ?



Irrelevant.
in absolute comparisons(ie,who's better away from home,strictly numbers-wise), it doesnt matter if Murali is vastly superior at home. If I, as a bowler, average 15 at home and 20 away and you average 22 at home and 23 away, i am better. End of story.



I expect you to miss the larger picture as usual.
Let me break it down for you : Murali is more consistent than Warne. Murali doesnt have an excellent(let alone the world's best) pace attack to soften up the batting lineup before he even has a bowl ala Warne. Batsmen can afford to stone-wall him and often do. He is quite simply, much more accomplished-both in ODIs and Tests- against the side against whom all spinners are measured: India. He has more wickets, better average, better strike rate and the *only* thing that counts against him is the fact that his home pitches suit him a tad more.And frankly,if you were a bowler with a brain, you'd rather be a part of a better attack than get 2-3 extra pitches that suits you while doing all the donkey-***-lion's work. Okay, so murali doesnt 'whitewash' Warne in all the relevant criterias. However, anyone with a sense of neutrality and common sense can see that Murali is, easily i might add- the supreme spinner the world has ever seen.
What about, and I'm just throwing this into the mix here (and it has no statistical evidence to back it up), the fact that it's harder to bowl leg spin than off spin? It's possible that this doesn't matter once you've developed it to the stage Warne had I suppose. It was interesting to see Lara say that Warne was always at you and you never felt in, whereas he felt Murali dropped off if things weren't going his way.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I dont like to contemplate the idea(primarily out of reverence for the more enlightened aussie posters here- you dont seem to be one of them) that the Aussie cricketing public in general, is singularly the most uneducated and boneheaded in matters of cricket but prevalence of such opinions leaves me no other choice.
Come on now...those of us that have been here for a while know full well that you LOVE to contemplate that idea! :happy:
 

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