South Africa & Quotas

[adharcric]

Thank you. No bad feelings.

 

[Goughy]

Thank you. No bad feelings.

Appreciated and the sentiments recipricated.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

I'd just like to say, with reference to this discussion, that I've learnt a bit about the SA quota system over the last few weeks, mainly thanks to Goughy's knowledge on the subject. Personally, as someone who generally supports affirmative action type systems when they are implemented in a reasonable way, my natural reaction to the quota system in South Africa has always been, at least, to be sympathetic to it. I generally disagree with hardline quotas, but I think making efforts to encourage participation of marginalised groups in a range of important areas is always a good thing to do, and that can involve removing barriers to entry and so on, which could be seen as an unfair advantage. I've never been entirely convinced that this sort of thing was as necessary in cricket as I feel it is in, say, University entry, but nevertheless I never saw it as anything outrageous.

I can imagine however that it'd be very difficult to have to work within the system with young cricketers and so on, and it'd make it tough to be a white cricketer in South Africa at the present time. Certainly, if things are as bad as they appear to be at this point, there needs to be some changes. There are surely other ways of encouraging non-white cricketers and even getting them into the national team than imposing inflexible quotas.

 

[social]

IMO Goughy has done a very good job at articulating hows, whys and wherefores of quota system in SA

Then again, Im Australian so my definition of "articulation" is probably different to those from more refined corners of the planet

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

I don't think his articulation is in question, more his alarming aggression.

 

[nightprowler10]

I don't think his articulation is in question, more his alarming aggression.

Which he has pretty much apologized for.

 

[Goughy]

I'd just like to say, with reference to this discussion, that I've learnt a bit about the SA quota system over the last few weeks, mainly thanks to Goughy's knowledge on the subject. Personally, as someone who generally supports affirmative action type systems when they are implemented in a reasonable way, my natural reaction to the quota system in South Africa has always been, at least, to be sympathetic to it. I generally disagree with hardline quotas, but I think making efforts to encourage participation of marginalised groups in a range of important areas is always a good thing to do, and that can involve removing barriers to entry and so on, which could be seen as an unfair advantage. I've never been entirely convinced that this sort of thing was as necessary in cricket as I feel it is in, say, University entry, but nevertheless I never saw it as anything outrageous.

I can imagine however that it'd be very difficult to have to work within the system with young cricketers and so on, and it'd make it tough to be a white cricketer in South Africa at the present time. Certainly, if things are as bad as they appear to be at this point, there needs to be some changes. There are surely other ways of encouraging non-white cricketers and even getting them into the national team than imposing inflexible quotas.

Good post and I think that the part in bold is the key.

Most South Africans I know want SA to be the best cricketing country on the planet. If that is with an all non-white team then fantasic. Colour doen't matter, it is the performance.

Ill continue as Ive been told I haven't explained the situation clearly enough.

The main issue with quota/targets (apart from just the racial aspect) is that it weakens the game in South Africa.

Apart from the national team, the Franchise teams all have targets they must meet.

Feeding into the Francise system are the provincial youth teams ranging from U'19's to U'11s.

It is important to also look below the professional level to understand the issues at the top.

Now all the provincial youth team squads must be a minimum of 50% non-white. There are also places reserved in the top order batting that must be filled by non-white players.

Now once a boy is in the system it is generally inflexible and he will stay there until U'19s.

There has been an explosion of Afrikaaner cricket talent in SA over the past 10 years. Their schools have taken the sport more seriously and in all honesty surpassed the English speaking schools.

So now there is a situation where (due to the massive increase in Afrikaans talent) there is now twice as many good white cricketers competeing for half the number of places in Provincial rep cricket.

SA has more young talent at its disposal than ever before and that is before you start to include non-white talent.

Unfortunately, the situation is that most of this talent is wasted as it has nowhere to go. There are 6 or 7 white places in each year group and the rest is cast aside.

Quite simply, talent development has dramatically declined.

Many stop playing after school or university (if not before) as they are not part of the provincial system and not wanted and there are very few club cricketers in their 20's.

Guys just stop playing or move on elsewhere like England or NZ.

A strategy must be developed, as you correctly said, that combines cricket development and improving standards. Its not an easy ask, but 'targets' or quotas are not the way to go.

 

[adharcric]

Goughy, which seven "colored" cricketers do you expect in the WC squad?

Loots Bosman, JP Duminy, Herschelle Gibbs, Garnett Kruger, Charl Langeveldt, Makhaya Ntini, Justin Ontong, Alviro Petersen,
Robin Peterson, Vernon Philander, Ashwell Prince, Roger Telemachus, Alfonso Thomas, Thandi Tshabalala

Gibbs, Langeveldt and Ntini will make it on merit. Tshabala is the most promising spinner in SA from what I've heard, so he should be in on merit I guess. You still need 3 more.

 

[Goughy]

Goughy, which seven "colored" cricketers do you expect in the WC squad?

Loots Bosman, JP Duminy, Herschelle Gibbs, Garnett Kruger, Charl Langeveldt, Makhaya Ntini, Justin Ontong, Alviro Petersen,
Robin Peterson, Vernon Philander, Ashwell Prince, Roger Telemachus, Alfonso Thomas, Thandi Tshabalala

Gibbs, Langeveldt and Ntini will make it on merit. Tshabala is the most promising spinner in SA from what I've heard, so he should be in on merit I guess. You still need 3 more.

From that list I would expect Gibbs, Prince, Langeveldt, Bosman, Ntini, Robbie P

and either 1 of Telemachus or Kruger

Ontong could sneak in ahead of Bosman, as sillier things have happened, but I doubt it even though Bosman averages 15 with the bat this season in domestic OD cricket.

Of that group Duminy and Tshabalala interest me the most, but are still quite young and the WC may be a step too far at this stage.

Personally, I hope SA get back to having Gibbs open the innings. Best place for him IMO, especially with all the ball strikers to come in lower down. He isnt needed in the middle order and could agian be destructive at the top.

I guess my 'final words' a few posts ago were not so final

 

[LA ICE-E]

oh man...so what i miss? can someone do this question again in the round table but with the people that argueed here the most on here...

 

[Goughy]

On a seperate and related quote.

The quotas at junior level have opened up opportunites for people with good business sense/selfish motives (circle which you think is more appropriate)

I know of at least 1 academy/cricket school (from talking to parents) that is taking advantage of the bottleneck of white talent and massive competition for places.

They claim to have influence (and maybe they do) and that if you join their cricket school (at an obvious high fee) and recieve their coaching then they can get you into the setup or at least give you a better opportunity.

The idea being is that they have the influence to push certain players and if you are not a paid member then that power will obviously not be used and there is no chance of being picked. With such a big group of talented players competing for a small number of places, this becomes very attractive to a number of parents.

Obviously all the boys cant be selected, but the idea is that the vast majority (if not all) will come from this academy. TBH, I dont know how many are claiming this but I know it happens at at least 1 place.

I really hate the idea, as do many others, but there are some that see it as taking advantage of a market and making a living.

 

[James90]

I was in a tournament with the Benoni High School side almost a month ago now. They were captained by a very nice Anglo bloke and there would have been about 6 "coloured" players in the XI. Would this be unrelated seeing as it is just the school picking their best XI cricketers?

 

[wpdavid]

Exactly.

Should a quota system really exist (and others here with far greater knowledge of the system in SA than I believe it does) then not too much has changed (at least on the sporting front)

You are Clive Rice and I claim my reward ..

Really, by all means criticise the current policy, but lets not pretend it's remotely equivalent to what preceded it. Unless that isn't what you meant, in which case I apologise. Ricey.

 

[social]

You are Clive Rice and I claim my reward ..

Really, by all means criticise the current policy, but lets not pretend it's remotely equivalent to what preceded it. Unless that isn't what you meant, in which case I apologise. Ricey.

Unfortunately, it's an indication that, in sporting selection (and economic management, political pre-selection, social services, etc) at least, the current administration hasnt learnt too much from their own country's history - discrimination doesnt work

 

[wpdavid]

Unfortunately, it's an indication that, in sporting selection (and economic management, political pre-selection, social services, etc) at least, the current administration hasnt learnt too much from their own country's history - discrimination doesnt work

To some extent. But the claims by Rice and his ilk that the current situation in SA cricket is morally equivalent to the complete exclusion of nonwhites prior to majority rule is, at best, disingenious and, at worst, downright dishonest and, afaics, not from the best of motives.

 

[social]

To some extent. But the claims by Rice and his ilk that the current situation in SA cricket is morally equivalent to the complete exclusion of nonwhites prior to majority rule is, at best, disingenious and, at worst, downright dishonest and, afaics, not from the best of motives.

It's hardly equivalent but far from perfect either or so it would seem

 

[wpdavid]

It's hardly equivalent but far from perfect either or so it would seem

Sure.

 

[GIMH]

Some form of quotas are necessary IMO....you can't separate sport and politics, especially somewhere like South Africa with their (still recent) history.

Disagree...quotas are mere hypocrisy IMO

 

[Richard]

Some people, evidently, believe that they're the only way to get non-whites into the game.

 

[social]

Some people, evidently, believe that they're the only way to get non-whites into the game.

Read Dickie Bird's autobiography and the way he tells it is that all the incentives in the world won't help - the coloured population simply prefers football