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the better bowler Malcolm Marshall or Dennis Lillee
- Thread starter aussie
- Start date
archie mac
International Coach
323 wickets potential? Plus another 100 against the best batsman in the World.C_C said:
He did tour the Windies with WSC and bowled very well.
Stress fractures of the back and spending months in a cast very convenient. What exam? Bowling well in country you never toured? Lillee was great but it is hard to take wickets if you are not in the country.
archie mac
International Coach
All time? None of your bowlers have played before 1972?SA said:
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Barry Richards said he picked the length out of the hand - with the placement of the hand when the ball left.Goughy said:
Barry Richards still attained a First-Class average of a mere (!) 55.
Maybe Bradman did pick length early - but I can't believe others haven't done the same thing from time to time.
He still couldn't tell what the ball was before it left the bowler's hand.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Perhaps - it strikes me as a bit of a coincidence that all the pads would suddenly become substandard in that series, though.C_C said:
Did Qadir breaking stumps have any pattern - eg all in the same match, all at the same ground, all in the same year, at a time when the manufacturer had changed, etc.?
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
- Trueman on his first tour to Windies played 3 tests and had 9 wickets at 46.7 each
Thank God he toured again and made up otherwise he would have been another also-ran
He was clearly scared of the sub continental wickets for he never toured India or Pakistan. Most probably to preserve his stats.
- Muralitharan despite his 600 plus wickets averages 60 plus in Australia. Obviously a highly over rated bowler.
Dont even talk about his figures in India
- Shane Warne the legendry Aussie leg spinner came to the sub continent and discovered he was not that great. Each of his 10 wickets costing 54 runs.
He came again 3-4 years later and this time his 10 wickets cost him 50.5 each
Shamelessly he returned again again 3 years later and this time it was worth it with an average of 30.1.
- Lillee, however, was **** scared of the hammering he got on his first tour of the sub continent 3 wickets at 101 ech. He never returned.
- His counterpart from the Windies, the GREAT MALCOLM MARSHALL, fared MUCH better on HIS first tour to the sub continent taking the same THREE wickets in three test matches but at a HUGELY SUPERIOR average fo 88.33
He was smart enough to return to the sub continent again and improved his figures.
One could find other such smart guys I suppose and those like Lillee who were not so smart.
Thank God he toured again and made up otherwise he would have been another also-ran
He was clearly scared of the sub continental wickets for he never toured India or Pakistan. Most probably to preserve his stats.
- Muralitharan despite his 600 plus wickets averages 60 plus in Australia. Obviously a highly over rated bowler.
Dont even talk about his figures in India
- Shane Warne the legendry Aussie leg spinner came to the sub continent and discovered he was not that great. Each of his 10 wickets costing 54 runs.
He came again 3-4 years later and this time his 10 wickets cost him 50.5 each
Shamelessly he returned again again 3 years later and this time it was worth it with an average of 30.1.
- Lillee, however, was **** scared of the hammering he got on his first tour of the sub continent 3 wickets at 101 ech. He never returned.
- His counterpart from the Windies, the GREAT MALCOLM MARSHALL, fared MUCH better on HIS first tour to the sub continent taking the same THREE wickets in three test matches but at a HUGELY SUPERIOR average fo 88.33
He was smart enough to return to the sub continent again and improved his figures.
One could find other such smart guys I suppose and those like Lillee who were not so smart.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
I don't really know that Botham and Waqar deserve to be ranked alongside the rest. Both had relatively short periods of success the like of which has rarely been seen, then longish periods of relative mediocrity.SA said:
I also think that Donald wasn't, probably, quite as good as Holding and Garner.
And indeed it'd be better to say they're the best of the modern era, not of all-time, because you can't really compare them to the Lindwalls, Stathams, Millers, Truemans and Halls.
Interesting to find someone else who thinks there's a chance Imran was the best seamer of the modern era, too...
I emphasise - I don't think that for certain, but I don't find it impossible either and I find Imran rarely gets the credit he deserves in most parts. No-one ever seems to mention him in the very top bracket, and, for me, to claim Lillee was better than him is frankly laughable.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
How did Imran first fare when he visited the subcontinent?SJS said:- Trueman on his first tour to Windies played 3 tests and had 9 wickets at 46.7 each
Thank God he toured again and made up otherwise he would have been another also-ran
He was clearly scared of the sub continental wickets for he never toured India or Pakistan. Most probably to preserve his stats.
- Muralitharan despite his 600 plus wickets averages 60 plus in Australia. Obviously a highly over rated bowler.
Dont even talk about his figures in India
- Shane Warne the legendry Aussie leg spinner came to the sub continent and discovered he was not that great. Each of his 10 wickets costing 54 runs.
He came again 3-4 years later and this time his 10 wickets cost him 50.5 each
Shamelessly he returned again again 3 years later and this time it was worth it with an average of 30.1.
- Lillee, however, was **** scared of the hammering he got on his first tour of the sub continent 3 wickets at 101 ech. He never returned.
- His counterpart from the Windies, the GREAT MALCOLM MARSHALL, fared MUCH better on HIS first tour to the sub continent taking the same THREE wickets in three test matches but at a HUGELY SUPERIOR average fo 88.33
He was smart enough to return to the sub continent again and improved his figures.
One could find other such smart guys I suppose and those like Lillee who were not so smart.
Oh, hang-on...
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
At, what, 18?
Picking 18-year-old bowlers, especially in those days, was always a crazy call. Body's nowhere near fully developed, always a risky call injury-wise, and rarely is an 18-year-old - bowler or batsman - going to be up to international cricket.
Imran barely played in his first 6 years after making his debut.
In any case - almost every cricketer has a pretty average start to their Test career. When was Lillee's first subcontinental series?
Picking 18-year-old bowlers, especially in those days, was always a crazy call. Body's nowhere near fully developed, always a risky call injury-wise, and rarely is an 18-year-old - bowler or batsman - going to be up to international cricket.
Imran barely played in his first 6 years after making his debut.
In any case - almost every cricketer has a pretty average start to their Test career. When was Lillee's first subcontinental series?
Matt79
Global Moderator
If Lillee declined to tour the subcontinent, as opposed to be ruled out through injury, World Series cricket, or Australia simply not touring, etc, and I don't know whether he ever did because I was not born/an infant during his career, BUT, if he did, I am certain it had nothing to do with 'being afraid of copping a hiding'. Everything I've read about the man argues against that - basically if you beat him, he'd not be happy til he got a chance for a rematch to straighten out the record.SJS said:- Trueman on his first tour to Windies played 3 tests and had 9 wickets at 46.7 each
Thank God he toured again and made up otherwise he would have been another also-ran
He was clearly scared of the sub continental wickets for he never toured India or Pakistan. Most probably to preserve his stats.
- Muralitharan despite his 600 plus wickets averages 60 plus in Australia. Obviously a highly over rated bowler.
Dont even talk about his figures in India
- Shane Warne the legendry Aussie leg spinner came to the sub continent and discovered he was not that great. Each of his 10 wickets costing 54 runs.
He came again 3-4 years later and this time his 10 wickets cost him 50.5 each
Shamelessly he returned again again 3 years later and this time it was worth it with an average of 30.1.
- Lillee, however, was **** scared of the hammering he got on his first tour of the sub continent 3 wickets at 101 ech. He never returned.
- His counterpart from the Windies, the GREAT MALCOLM MARSHALL, fared MUCH better on HIS first tour to the sub continent taking the same THREE wickets in three test matches but at a HUGELY SUPERIOR average fo 88.33
He was smart enough to return to the sub continent again and improved his figures.
One could find other such smart guys I suppose and those like Lillee who were not so smart.
If he decided not to join touring teams, I'd say it was because of the shocking time Australia teams tended to have in the subcontinent until Steve Waugh led a reevaluation of Australian teams attitudes to touring the subcontinent. I hasten to add that the bad time the tourists had was certainly not the fault of the locals, but rather an attitudinal problem combined with some specific cricket issues that have since been recognised.
1) Everybody got dyssentry - often quite severely.
2) For your average Aussie, either from the suburbs or country, the subcontinent represented a massive culture shock, which they frequently failed to deal with.
3) They felt they were cheated against in Pakistan by a conspiracy between the Pakistani team, the Pakistani umpires, and the pitch curators. If you've read steve waugh's autobiog, he relates that for the 1985 tour, he was told by an old hand "you'll go to the first test, the umpires will cheat you and you'll lose the test. Then the next two tests will be on concrete runways that will offer no chance of a result and you'll lose the series 1-0" As Waugh describes it, this is exactly what happened, and after the first test, where he claims Miandad openly taunted them regarding his imperviousness to the laws of LBW, the Aussie squad nearly boycotted the rest of the tour.
Unfortunately for generations of players, touring the subcontinent was seen as an ordeal, but their reluctance was not because they felt they couldn't cut it there.
As I said, I didn't see Lillee play, and acknowledging the futility in one sense, but the irresistability on the other hand, of rating players you haven't seen, based on everything I've read, including assessments from players who played all the West Indian greats, presumably Hadlee, Imran, etc. they all say Lillee was special and in a class of his own.
He'd be the first pace bowler I'd pencil in for any greatest all-time XI.
Whether this makes him better than Marshall, I guess the implications of my comments is 'yes', but jeez, you're talking about two absolute legends, I'd take them both thanks.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
"Being ruled-out through World Series Cricket" was entirely his fault.Matt79 said:
Kerry Packer didn't force him to the grounds and make him play, he decided to trade career for cash. Whether that was understandible (most said Australian players were poorly paid) is another matter.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
It is and I, and amz, have acknowledged that we were mistaken in believing this to be the case.
Nonetheless, Lillee's lack of subcontinental cricket is, in part, his fault - though there is plenty of blame attached to the ACB's tour managers and, of course, whatever caused his spinal stress fractures.
Nonetheless, Lillee's lack of subcontinental cricket is, in part, his fault - though there is plenty of blame attached to the ACB's tour managers and, of course, whatever caused his spinal stress fractures.
Matt79
Global Moderator
His original action, whilst being described as poetry in motion etc, put enormous strain on particular areas of his back. Brett Lee had a similar problem, and maybe Bond (although that's just a hazy recollection, I'm not at all certain about it). That's why Lillee is so widely used as a coach these days, because he had to plan his own recovery/rehabilitation and completely redesign his action. His new action was not as aesthetically pleasing but was a model of sustainability - that's a large part of what he coaches. His courage in coming back from an injury type that had previously been considered career ending and becoming an even better bowler is a big part of why he's such a champ.