GoodAreasShane
Cricketer Of The Year
Doubt that makes a difference, Langer being in charge meant if anything WA was the state to be from in that respect
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Your best batsman coming in at 3 is such a myth
- Thread starter mr_mister
- Start date
Coronis
International Coach
And you don’t think forcing him to play a position where he’s not as comfortable (for whatever reason it might be) is putting him under pressure?
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
They tried to move him to 4 lots of times and it didn't work - 62 innings for an average of 30. He averaged double that at 5.
It was cursed for some reason. It was definitely worth a go but at some point you just have to cop that it's not working out.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I guess that is fair. It is weird for me that changing just one position will dramatically change someone's average, though I definitely think it affects the team.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
After a while I think it becomes a mental thing. It's the same with Root at #3 - there's no real technical reason he can't do it and it'd be better for the team if he could, but it gets inside his head so he's better off one spot lower.
Red_Ink_Squid
Global Moderator
Did Clarke come to mind perhaps because he was the main player being discussed for the past page or so of this thread?
mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
How do you square this logic with your opinion of Border as one of the greatest batsmen ever? Wasn't he a perma 4/5?
Did he bat 3 for Queensland?
trundler
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He batted 4 more than anywhere else.
mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
True, just had to check that. Still, had 2 thirds his his career at 5 or lower (usually 5/6)
Daemon
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As if I read any of your postsDid Clarke come to mind perhaps because he was the main player being discussed for the past page or so of this thread?
Burgey
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No he didn't.
You can still be a great player without batting three, but it plainly is the most important role in any batting line up in FC or test cricket for the obvious reason - one fer nothing is not really a big deal, two fer always is. You need at least a decent three to be a good test side. By decent I mean historically someone averaging at least in the 40s who can handle the new ball as well as the old one.
Adorable Asshole
International Regular
New rule of CW : You can't be a great batsman if you can't bat at at 1,2 or 3.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
This is just because you hate Kallis.
Adorable Asshole
International Regular
I can name 5 no-4 bats beter than Kallis.
Also he batted a decent part of his career at no-3 averaging almost 50, it wasn't directed at him.
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Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
Thought i'd do a bit of a budget analysis of Australia's best and most prolific number 3s over time, and whether they were the best batsmen in the team during their era.
Ricky Ponting: Ponting Spent a few tests at #3 in 1996 when Langer was out of the team, coming in behind Taylor/Slater. Langer then went back to #3 for a bit before he formed an opening partnership with Hayden in 2001 and Ponting moved to #3 long term. I think it's pretty easy to argue Ponting was the best player in his teams for the duration of the time he spent at #3, although you could argue that S.Waugh at #5 might have been. Ponting's overall average at #3 was 56.
Don Bradman: Not much to be argued here, he averaged 103 at #3. Was clearly the best batsman in his team, obviously,
David Boon: Boon formed a solid opening partnership with Marsh early on before dropping to #3 when Marsh/Slater and Taylor became opening combos. Was for a time one of the best batsmen in the world in the early 90s, arguably better than a declining Border and an emerging SWaugh during that period. How good he was is sometimes abit forgotten, worked well as an opener batting at #3, averaged 45 batting at #3, averaging almost 40 against the WIs in that era, which is the same as Border.
Ian Chappell: Ian Chappell averaged 50 at #3. While general consensus is that his brother Greg was better than him, it's not that clear cut imo. He preferred #3, which he has made known. Greg is probably a bit better, and batted at #4 mostly, Greg averaging 43 at #3 but 59 at #4. It's arguable that Ian wasn't the best batsman in the team, but it's close.
Neil Harvey: Harvey spent the majority of his career at #3 (79 innings) but also spent a lot of time at #4 (41 innings). He averaged 46 at #3 and 47 at #4. Harvey was probably the best batsman in his era, although Hassett is underrated and Morris was an opener during that time.
Clem Hill: Spent the vast majority of his career at #3, Trumper existed in the same era and moved between opening and down the order further. Trumper had bigger averages batting down the order than he did opening, and is generally considered better than Hill, but you can argue Hill was his equal and it's been done here.
Justin Langer: Batted at #3 early on before forming a brilliant opening partnership with Hayden. Was better as an opener and wasn't the best batsman in his team when he was at #3 but was serviceable, averaging 40 there.
Usman Khawaja: Was ok at #3 but has been better when given the chance to open. Always behind Smith, Clarke, Hussey as far as being the best bat in the team during his times at #3.
Marnus Labuschagne: Has mostly batted at #3 since starting and is probably the best batsman over the last few years. Smith has declined slightly since he debuted, a fact well noted by commentators.
Steve Smith: Has spent more time at #4 than #3, but averages 67/66 in either spot. Was clearly our best batsman in the era he batted #3.
Ricky Ponting: Ponting Spent a few tests at #3 in 1996 when Langer was out of the team, coming in behind Taylor/Slater. Langer then went back to #3 for a bit before he formed an opening partnership with Hayden in 2001 and Ponting moved to #3 long term. I think it's pretty easy to argue Ponting was the best player in his teams for the duration of the time he spent at #3, although you could argue that S.Waugh at #5 might have been. Ponting's overall average at #3 was 56.
Don Bradman: Not much to be argued here, he averaged 103 at #3. Was clearly the best batsman in his team, obviously,
David Boon: Boon formed a solid opening partnership with Marsh early on before dropping to #3 when Marsh/Slater and Taylor became opening combos. Was for a time one of the best batsmen in the world in the early 90s, arguably better than a declining Border and an emerging SWaugh during that period. How good he was is sometimes abit forgotten, worked well as an opener batting at #3, averaged 45 batting at #3, averaging almost 40 against the WIs in that era, which is the same as Border.
Ian Chappell: Ian Chappell averaged 50 at #3. While general consensus is that his brother Greg was better than him, it's not that clear cut imo. He preferred #3, which he has made known. Greg is probably a bit better, and batted at #4 mostly, Greg averaging 43 at #3 but 59 at #4. It's arguable that Ian wasn't the best batsman in the team, but it's close.
Neil Harvey: Harvey spent the majority of his career at #3 (79 innings) but also spent a lot of time at #4 (41 innings). He averaged 46 at #3 and 47 at #4. Harvey was probably the best batsman in his era, although Hassett is underrated and Morris was an opener during that time.
Clem Hill: Spent the vast majority of his career at #3, Trumper existed in the same era and moved between opening and down the order further. Trumper had bigger averages batting down the order than he did opening, and is generally considered better than Hill, but you can argue Hill was his equal and it's been done here.
Justin Langer: Batted at #3 early on before forming a brilliant opening partnership with Hayden. Was better as an opener and wasn't the best batsman in his team when he was at #3 but was serviceable, averaging 40 there.
Usman Khawaja: Was ok at #3 but has been better when given the chance to open. Always behind Smith, Clarke, Hussey as far as being the best bat in the team during his times at #3.
Marnus Labuschagne: Has mostly batted at #3 since starting and is probably the best batsman over the last few years. Smith has declined slightly since he debuted, a fact well noted by commentators.
Steve Smith: Has spent more time at #4 than #3, but averages 67/66 in either spot. Was clearly our best batsman in the era he batted #3.
Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
Can you? Go on.
TheJediBrah
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Lara, Kohli, maybe Root
Border play enough at 4? Wasn't he mostly lower?
Weekes seems a bit iffy in that group.