Wisden on Murali's Action

[harsh.ag]

It means some times the bowler may not be aware he has a flawed action with a jerk at the elbow. That would be unintentional. At other times, he would be very aware and doing it. In any case, if there is a flawed action, the bowler should have his action remedied.

How does a jerk at the elbow = chucking even if the straightening is below 15 degrees? How much jerk is even possible when the straightening is below 15 degrees?

 

[OverratedSanity]

The reason the issue is larger than Murali is that the new law allows bowlers to chuck. As long as a bowler is within 15 degrees, he can jerk his elbow for a chuck intentionally or unintentionally. The question about McGrath chucking as per the old law was never there as he had a smooth action without that jerk on the elbow. At such high speeds a bit of straightening will be there for all bowlers. However its the jerking of the elbow which is the issue and has been traditionally, not degrees. I don't think they ever got into degrees when they threw Meckiff and so many others in that era when they stamped their foot down on the chuckers.

So what you're saying is, we should drop the science totally and just trust our stupid eyes to judge things. Excellent.

And how did you even come to the conclusion that people can intentionally 'chuck' within a 15 degree flexion? That's such a meaningless statement too, by the way. A chuck isn't just simply a straightening of the elbow. It's only a chuck if it's over a 15 degree straightening, which is what the law says. Even if bowlers intentionally straighten their bowlers upto 15 degrees, it isn't a chuck anyway because they've been given that leeway by the laws, as it's been scientifically proven that it's virtually impossible to keep it below that level anyway.

 

[Pratters]

When you jerk the elbow, you bring in an extra joint force on the ball. That was essentially the chuck before all this nonsense came along. It's completely scientific OS. Also, I am not saying don't use technology. We use hotspot at times. We can use some technology to se a fast jerk at the elbow.

As per old laws, degrees were irrelevent and rightly so.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Wtf? You measure elbow 'jerk' or flexion or whatever you want to call it, in degrees. How the **** is bringing in a way to actually measure how much of flexion should be practically allowed a bad thing? You're making zero sense.

 

[Pratters]

I don't think you understand OS.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I really don't.

 

[harsh.ag]

When you jerk the elbow, you bring in an extra joint force on the ball. That was essentially the chuck before all this nonsense came along. It's completely scientific OS. Also, I am not saying don't use technology. We use hotspot at times. We can use some technology to se a fast jerk at the elbow.

As per old laws, degrees were irrelevent and rightly so.

The old law just said

A ball is fairly delivered in respect of the arm if, once the bowler's arm has reached the level of the shoulder in the delivery swing, the elbow joint is not straightened partially or completely from that point until the ball has left the hand. This definition shall not debar a bowler from flexing or rotating the wrist in the delivery swing.

It specifically talks about straightening of the arm. So clearly degrees were not irrelevant. Elbow jerk has never been a legitimate definition of chucking. If you would like to introduce it now, that's a different thing altogether.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I don't know what you guys even mean by elbow 'jerk'

 

[Pratters]

The old law just said

A ball is fairly delivered in respect of the arm if, once the bowler's arm has reached the level of the shoulder in the delivery swing, the elbow joint is not straightened partially or completely from that point until the ball has left the hand. This definition shall not debar a bowler from flexing or rotating the wrist in the delivery swing.

It specifically talks about straightening of the arm. So clearly degrees were not irrelevant. Elbow jerk has never been a legitimate definition of chucking. If you would like to introduce it now, that's a different thing altogether.

According to the old law, straightening at the elbow was not allowed. This essentially meant the jerking of the elbow (or moving the elbow to use force OS). The whole essence of chucking is using of the third joint apart from the shoulder and the wrist to get extra force on the ball being bowled.

When they did the tests, the found out that guys like MCGrath etc also straightened their arms. When bowlers rotate the arms at high speed, there is going to be natural straightening. This doesn't mean they are using the elbow as a vital joint to use force like the other ones. The old law didn't even know about the natural straightening. There is no reason to debar that as it is not what chucking is.

Now, instead of finding whether bowlers were using elbows to use force on the deliveries by straightening at that joint, we are going into degrees in the modern era which makes no real sense. There can be two types of straightening - one the chucking one where a lot of force is used at the elbow. The other - the natural one like McGrath or 99% test bowlers.

 

[harsh.ag]

According to the old law, straightening at the elbow was not allowed. This essentially meant the jerking of the elbow (or moving the elbow to use force OS). The whole essence of chucking is using of the third joint apart from the shoulder and the wrist to get extra force on the ball being bowled.

When they did the tests, the found out that guys like MCGrath etc also straightened their arms. When bowlers rotate the arms at high speed, there is going to be natural straightening. This doesn't mean they are using the elbow as a vital joint to use force like the other ones. The old law didn't even know about the natural straightening. There is no reason to debar that as it is not what chucking is.

Now, instead of finding whether bowlers were using elbows to use force on the deliveries by straightening at that joint, we are going into degrees in the modern era which makes no real sense. There can be two types of straightening - one the chucking one where a lot of force is used at the elbow. The other - the natural one like McGrath or 99% test bowlers.

How is using "jerk at the elbow to use force" or "straightening at the elbow joint" different from "straightening of the arm"?

Dude you have to be aware that this is really technical biomechanist stuff, so you will have to explain this. I, like OS, have no clue what this means.

 

[Pratters]

How is using "jerk at the elbow to use force" or "straightening at the elbow joint" different from "straightening of the arm"?

Dude you have to be aware that this is really technical biomechanist stuff, so you will have to explain this. I, like OS, have no clue what this means.

Ill be glad to explain.

When McGrath or 99% test bowlers bowl, they have a round arm action at high speed. This means there is a natural straightening.

When a chucker in the traditional sense is bowling, he is using his elbow to get extra force. So you see some thing jerky in his action as he is using the elbow to get extra force.

 

[Pratters]

Try bowling round arm and then throwing with round arm action by straightening the elbow. It's not a difference that is difficult to understand I think.

 

[harsh.ag]

Ill be glad to explain.

When McGrath or 99% test bowlers bowl, they have a round arm action at high speed. This means there is a natural straightening.

When a chucker in the traditional sense is bowling, he is using his elbow to get extra force. So you see some thing jerky in his action as he is using the elbow to get extra force.

But doesn't this then come down to a matter of aesthetics?

 

[OverratedSanity]

It's the old "if it looks like a chuck, it is one" argument.

 

[Pratters]

Not really regarding both the last two points. It's scientific more than any thing.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Ill be glad to explain.

When McGrath or 99% test bowlers bowl, they have a round arm action at high speed. This means there is a natural straightening.

When a chucker in the traditional sense is bowling, he is using his elbow to get extra force. So you see some thing jerky in his action as he is using the elbow to get extra force.

Are you talking about hyper-extension, or does "natural straightening" mean something else

 

[harsh.ag]

Not really regarding both the last two points. It's scientific more than any thing.

Okay, then you need to point out a study done somewhere which points out how the "elbow jerk/straightening of elbow joint" gives an unfair advantage to the bowler.

 

[harsh.ag]

Are you talking about hyper-extension, or does "natural straightening" mean something else

He means "straightening of the arm" by that expression, which is allowed up to 15 degrees right now.

 

[Pratters]

Are you talking about hyper-extension, or does "natural straightening" mean something else

When some one rotates arm at rapid speed there is natural straightening.

 

[Pratters]

Okay, then you need to point out a study done somewhere which points out how the "elbow jerk/straightening of elbow joint" gives an unfair advantage to the bowler.

You can do the experiment yourself. Bowl without throwing the ball using the shoulder and wrist. Then bowl using the elbow by straigtening it as well