Will this be England's worst ever 5-0 defeat in Australia?

[wpdavid]

It's interesting to see what I'd forgotten about the 1990s series. I would have argued that the 1994/95 side was stronger once Fraser arrived for the third test, but it turns out that Stewart didn't play after the first two tests. That side looks OKish on paper, but Gooch and Gatting were well past their best by then. And yet they still dominated the drawn third test and won the fourth against a team that was about to become number 1 in the world. And yes, they collapsed in a heap in the final test, before anyone suggests that I'm cherry picking their better performances. But at least the series was still alive in the final test, even if the Ashes weren't.

Another thing that a lot of us had forgotten is that Jack Russell didn't play in 1994/95 or 1998/99 at all. Steve Rhodes wore the gloves in 1994/95, supposedly because he was a better batsman than Russell (he wasn't) despite being a lesser keeper (which he definitely was). And Stewart wore the gloves for most of 1998/99 until we thought it might be a good idea to let him concentrate on batting and captaining, when stand-in Warren Hegg came into the side. Stewart duly made a hundred opening, we won that particular test and had a decent chance of winning the following one until the 3rd umpire decided that actually he preferred to ignore the evidence that Slater should have been dismissed run out before going on to set up a match wining total. Stewart's captaincy was under-rated imo.

 

[ImpatientLime]

lol at those who said no

 

[Calm_profit]

Atleast 90's side used to win a test match there,this is worse.

 

[Spark]

Yeah that particular Aus team was lightning in a bottle. A series between this current Aus side and that 13/14 Clarke-led side would be immense fun, but you’d back the latter because I can’t see how anyone short of peak Smith can deal with Johnson/Harris in that mood and Smith isn’t quite at that level right now. This current side is probably a bit more well-rounded - the 13/14 top order is actually quite thin, especially against high quality seam - but when you have the bowling equivalent of a 18-pounder, it doesn’t really matter.

So I know I said this, but after last night I'm reconsidering, because no one short of peak Smith is dealing with Starc and Cummins in that mood either (especially Cummins. How the **** do you play Pat Cummins)

 

[Son Of Coco]

So I know I said this, but after last night I'm reconsidering, because no one short of peak Smith is dealing with Starc and Cummins in that mood either (especially Cummins. How the **** do you play Pat Cummins)

Yeah, in this test there were no weaknesses in the bowling attack. It would be very hard to play.

 

[Yorker48]

The 1986/87 ashes was the last year England sent a cricket team that could actually play cricket in Australia, ever since that year they have sent the county cricket dregs of the nation who are only able to play at the most mediocre level.

 

[Jfry]

So I know I said this, but after last night I'm reconsidering, because no one short of peak Smith is dealing with Starc and Cummins in that mood either (especially Cummins. How the **** do you play Pat Cummins)

Warner from 2013-14 would have a chance for me, judging by his efforts from the following series in SA

 

[wpdavid]

The 1986/87 ashes was the last year England sent a cricket team that could actually play cricket in Australia, ever since that year they have sent the county cricket dregs of the nation who are only able to play at the most mediocre level.

A bit harsh on the 2010/11 squad.

 

[wpdavid]

Atleast 90's side used to win a test match there,this is worse.

And those wins were when the series was still alive, albeit after the Ashes were gone.

I do think that we need to look beyond the names on the team sheets too. The popular view is that Stokes would walk into the 1990s sides, but is that actually true of the current version who has missed so much cricket over the last 12 months, especially when you consider his mental health issues?

 

[cnerd123]

Will we even get 5 Tests with the latest COVID scares? Only thing that can prevent 5-0 right now.

 

[Spark]

A bit harsh on the 2010/11 squad.

13/14 was a perfectly decent cricket side as well, just a tiny bit past its prime and then destroyed by once-in-a-generation bowling.

 

[GIMH]

And those wins were when the series was still alive, albeit after the Ashes were gone.

I do think that we need to look beyond the names on the team sheets too. The popular view is that Stokes would walk into the 1990s sides, but is that actually true of the current version who has missed so much cricket over the last 12 months, especially when you consider his mental health issues?

I think this is harsh, could level the same at someone like Thorpe in reverse. Stokes is a victim of our ineptitude at the moment because if we had some competent batsmen not called Joe Root then he’s sat at home watching it on the TV (IMO)

 

[wpdavid]

I think this is harsh, could level the same at someone like Thorpe in reverse. Stokes is a victim of our ineptitude at the moment because if we had some competent batsmen not called Joe Root then he’s sat at home watching it on the TV (IMO)

Absolutely, and I wasn't criticising Stokes. Just recognising the effects of the last 12 months.

 

[jcas0167]

Nah it was basically just two days at Adelaide. Worth remembering that Aus piled on a massive scored in response to England's first innings so they don't really get credit for the entire game either.

Just reading Vic Marks' 'Late Cuts' and he says how England's declaration in the first innings there felt like a mistake at the time and so it proved. They could have ground McGrath & Warne into the dust. That series was the worst in my view because England had won that amazing 2005 series and then they made a series of bad calls. I think the main one was not retaining Strauss as captain, after leading them to a series win over Pakistan, and going with Flintoff.

Some people are saying this isn't a top Australian team. I think it is. Top test bowler and batsman. Senior players who have hit top form (Warner, Starc). Guys who have come in and played well. The only weak points have been Harris (who top scored in this game) and Green's batting at 6?

 

[Spark]

Yeah the questions fir ne are over whether Harris is actually good, and whether Marnus is that good basically. You don't win or lose Test matches based on how good your #6 is.

 

[Yorker48]

A bit harsh on the 2010/11 squad.

Oops forgot that series. Aside from that result ten years ago it has been slim pickings since then.

 

[quincywagstaff]

Some people are saying this isn't a top Australian team. I think it is. Top test bowler and batsman. Senior players who have hit top form (Warner, Starc). Guys who have come in and played well. The only weak points have been Harris (who top scored in this game) and Green's batting at 6?

I was just listening to a podcast post 2nd Test where Ian Bell said he still thought Australia were the best team in the world.

Does everybody forget that this side has lost two home series to India in the last few years?

The 18/19 one could be excused to an extent because without Warner/Smith but they still had their full-strength bowling lineup out and if not for Sydney rain, could've easily been 3-1.

But last summer's India defeat had everything in Oz's favour; full-strength Oz lineup, India lose their captain and the opening Test, lose their entire first-choice bowling lineup and India still managed a series victory.

Last summer just exposes all the English excuses about how good Australia is and how tough it is to win in Australia as hollow.

They were mentally beaten before the tour started and this is on track to be the worst English Ashes touring side in living memory.

 

[Gob]

I was just listening to a podcast post 2nd Test where Ian Bell said he still thought Australia were the best team in the world.

Does everybody forget that this side has lost two home series to India in the last few years?

The 18/19 one could be excused to an extent because without Warner/Smith but they still had their full-strength bowling lineup out and if not for Sydney rain, could've easily been 3-1.

But last summer's India defeat had everything in Oz's favour; full-strength Oz lineup, India lose their captain and the opening Test, lose their entire first-choice bowling lineup and India still managed a series victory.

Last summer just exposes all the English excuses about how good Australia is and how tough it is to win in Australia as hollow.

They were mentally beaten before the tour started and this is on track to be the worst English Ashes touring side in living memory.

I think Australia are an average team based on results (last away win in 2016, losing at home to second string India) but a very strong side based on individuals. Harris is the only real dud here but the rest are either truly great players, very good ones and young players with good potential

They have the opportunity to correct the record over the next 12 months. Don't forget India constantly lost in SENA countries before last year

 

[stephen]

Yeah Australia has the core of a great side right now. Warner and Smith are getting a bit old now, which is the biggest concern other than the other opener.

 

[Spark]

I was just listening to a podcast post 2nd Test where Ian Bell said he still thought Australia were the best team in the world.

Does everybody forget that this side has lost two home series to India in the last few years?

The 18/19 one could be excused to an extent because without Warner/Smith but they still had their full-strength bowling lineup out and if not for Sydney rain, could've easily been 3-1.

But last summer's India defeat had everything in Oz's favour; full-strength Oz lineup, India lose their captain and the opening Test, lose their entire first-choice bowling lineup and India still managed a series victory.

Last summer just exposes all the English excuses about how good Australia is and how tough it is to win in Australia as hollow.

They were mentally beaten before the tour started and this is on track to be the worst English Ashes touring side in living memory.

While this is true, I think it's a bit disingenuous to say that this is exactly the same side. There have been some small changes which have a pretty dramatic influence when we're talking about the small margins that ended up deciding that particular series - Green's bowling actually being a useful threat, firstly, but most gallingly the vast, vast upgrade on both captain and keeper. That's a pretty important difference.

It's a bit like saying that 2010-11 England and 2013-14 England had many of the same players and thus the performance of the latter devalues the former. Well, no, that's not quite how it works.