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Why the hypocrisy on Zimbabwe ?

jot1

State Vice-Captain
THe tour is being objected to on moral grounds tho....
leaving aside the issue of how good Zimbabwe actually are, do you or jot honestly think that anyone would ever call for China's exclusion from the Olympics ?

I just don't buy the whole morality argument especially when it seems to apply in some cases and in others it doesn't.
I believe in this case it is one country showing disapproval of one other country's human rights violations and it only affects both countries in a small arena.
I don't think that with this action Australia is trying to dictate to the rest of the world how to conduct their sporting policies. Or even trying to incite the rest of the world to join against all the wrong-doing nations in the world. We'll have very little global interaction, in that case, as most countries at some time or other treat people harshly.
Boycotting the Olympics will affect other countries too and deprive them of competition and interaction with the boycotting country. So everyone, in a sense, is "punished", not just the country being objected to.
 

Salamuddin

International Debutant
I don't have the time for long paragraphs at the moment. I need to be somewhere else ten minutes ago and have done several things yesterday.

Effectively, there's a scale of human rights abuses and political interference in selection and democracy. South Africa isn't clean when it comes to political interference in team selection. Nor is Sri Lanka - who were banned from FIFA competitions recently when the government messed around with their FA (a similar happening was the case in Bangladesh too, IIRC). The USA does not have a good track record with human rights.

Your opening post takes the tone of there being either "black" or "white" when it comes to human rights and democracy, when there are a hundred shades of grey in between. In terms of moral objections, it's about how dark it needs to be before you can no longer see anything: the extent of breadth, depth and severity of political interference, human rights abuse and gross mismanagement across Zimbabwe Cricket (case in point: the impossibility of covering the last Zim-Bdesh ODI series) is, in many peoples' perception, more severe than China.

From another perspective, it's more of a political question than a cricketing one. Zimbabwe is making itself a pariah at a rapid rate - and pissing off China is a very, very bad idea. Whether or not that's right, that's just the way it is.

You last paragraph pretty much sums it up.....it's not about the morality, China can't be ignored whereas Zimbabwe is a nobody....it's all about political expediency.
The shades of gray argument IMO doesn't wash......that's highly subjective. How can an outsider say look Muagbe's treatment of MDC supporters is worse than China's suppression of Tibetan dissidents ?
 

Bracken

U19 Debutant
That's not fair and is double standards and discrimination against zimbabwe.
Fair? You'll have to excuse me, but I'm not particularly concerned with whether or not a murderous, totalitarian regime is being treated "fairly".

If three people commit three murders but only one of them gets caught, I'm not going to mourn for him. Ideally, all regimes such as this one should be shunned, but the fact that another gets away with it isn't a reason to decry action that is taken against one of them.
 

Bullfrog1

Banned
Fair? You'll have to excuse me, but I'm not particularly concerned with whether or not a murderous, totalitarian regime is being treated "fairly".

If three people commit three murders but only one of them gets caught, I'm not going to mourn for him. Ideally, all regimes such as this one should be shunned, but the fact that another gets away with it isn't a reason to decry action that is taken against one of them.
I agree. Good analogy. Two wrongs do not make a right.
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
Ideally, I think everyone should boycott the Beijing Olympics, but as has been stated, the issue of whether you approve of another country isn't black and white. You mention Pakistan and Musharraf - the fact is that Musharraf and the army, undemocratic and corrupt as they are, are the only thing holding that country together as a functional state. If they were ousted and the religious loonies over the got into power then we're all for a **** of a time - and the Pakistani people are in for a worse time. They're probably the best option for the Pakistani people, and as such are probably the lesser of the evils available for the time being.

China regime is abhorrent in many ways, but is again different from Zimbabwe. They are working to significantly improve the standard of living for people in China, with notable successes, and while that doesn't excuse their human rights violations, it does, in combination with their increasing willingness to act as a mature and constructive international citizen, mean that its worth trying to work with them to lead them to a better way of behaviour.
 

pup11

International Coach
In an ideal world you won't like to see sports getting mixed up with politics, but then we are hardly living in an ideal world.


But i don't think anybody is trying to discriminate with Zimbabwe, its only that Zimbabwe is in a mess for some time now and their own players have left the country due to this.
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
Fair? You'll have to excuse me, but I'm not particularly concerned with whether or not a murderous, totalitarian regime is being treated "fairly".

If three people commit three murders but only one of them gets caught, I'm not going to mourn for him. Ideally, all regimes such as this one should be shunned, but the fact that another gets away with it isn't a reason to decry action that is taken against one of them.
it's not like people don't know about the other two regimes though.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
But Pakistani crickets can not become Kolpak cricketers. Zimbabwe has (or had) an associate agreement with the EU. Doubtlessly, if Pakistan had such an agreement, English cricket too would face an influx of disenfranchised Pakistani nationals.
That might hold more water if it was only here that the Zimbas had come to. Taibu is (IIRC) playing in SA & Blignaut was playing grade cricket in Oz. Admittedly the majority have come over here, but that's probably more because we employ more pro cricketers than elsewhere.
 

Gloucefan

U19 Vice-Captain
You can't make the assumption that you can deal with all countries in exactly the same way. Complain that China violate human rights all you like but if you really believe that boycotting the Olympics is the best way to change China and bring it into the 'international community' then your just an idealist. China is a very powerful country. In this situation you have to encourage China (and it is happening) to change by brining it into the international community. If you want to have any sort of influence on China at all you can't push them away, you need to engage with them. Zimbabwe on the other hand, or the ZANU PF at that, is a post-colonial power that will not in any way listen to Western powers (especially Britain).

Disapproving and boycotting the Beijing Olympics, while arguably morally right, will not achieve a thing. However boycotting a Cricket tour of Zimbabwe shows that the international community is still very much against the regime in Zimbabwe which does not have the same kind of power (either internationally or domestically) that a country like China has.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
SO AUstralia decries the lack of democracy in Zimbabwe.....and won't send their cricket team over there.

Ok, I can accept that .....but is Australia prepared to boycott the Beijing OLympics next year ?
Hell after all, China just suppresses human freedoms and illegally occupies a whole country (Tibet) ?

What about the Pakistan tour next year - General Musharraf is nothing but a military dicatator who has curtailed democracy in Pakistan ?
But hey, he iss upposedly a valuable ally in the so-called "war on terror", so its ok to tour ?

C'mon where's the logic there.......?????
A more appropriate question is why Howard/Blair chose to intervene in Iraq but have done nothing in relation to Zimbabwe, a country they have closer ties to via the Commonwealth.

As for China, isolationist policies or confrontation havent worked before and there's nothing to suggest they'll work now.

Things are improving, albeit slowly and exposure to the world has something to do with that.

As for the Olympics, the decision to award the Games is made by big business through its' stooge the IOC

Australia's withdrawal would barely cause a ripple with the people of China.

However, it could prove devastating to our relationship with that Country (and all the bilateral trade that it entails) and, as such, it would take another Tiannamen for it even to be considered.
 
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Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
It's funny to see how people bend over and shun the morality talk the moment someone whispers 'China'.

Social - Thank you for your unbiased commentry as usual, I am sure Australia's refusal to tour Zimbabwe is going to cause ripples in Zimbabwe politics, Mugabe will be shattered to know that Australian cricket team has refused to tour Zimbabwe.
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
He's got quite irate about comments from Howard criticising him before, so he does notice when Australia comments on his actions - the Commonwealth seems to be pretty important to him.

Of course, doubt any of that gets in the news in the States? :)
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Okay I concede, as you said after hearing that Australia will not be touring Zimbabwe, Mugabe will be shattered and immidiately step down as the PM/President of Zimbabwe and and people of Zimbabwe will be free once again.

Obviously this news will never make it to USA even in this world of Internet. My only source of information will be CricketWeb, so please enlighten us if sorry when this change takes place in Zimbabwe.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It's funny to see how people bend over and shun the morality talk the moment someone whispers 'China'.

Social - Thank you for your unbiased commentry as usual, I am sure Australia's refusal to tour Zimbabwe is going to cause ripples in Zimbabwe politics, Mugabe will be shattered to know that Australian cricket team has refused to tour Zimbabwe.
Sanz

the situation in Zimbabwe is horrific and just how anyone could support maintaining ties of any sort to that regime (whether explicit or otherwise) is beyond my comprehension.

Personally, I couldnt give a flying toss what Mugabe thinks about any opinion/action.

The fact that our government may have to pay $2 million in tax-payers money to get out of a meaningless series against a joke team selected on racial grounds by representatives of a mass-murderer is the real crime here.

The situation in China is entirely different.

Boycotting the Beijing Olympics, when virtually no-one else will, is a meaningless act of shooting one-self in the foot.
 

Gloucefan

U19 Vice-Captain
Okay I concede, as you said after hearing that Australia will not be touring Zimbabwe, Mugabe will be shattered and immidiately step down as the PM/President of Zimbabwe and and people of Zimbabwe will be free once again.

Obviously this news will never make it to USA even in this world of Internet. My only source of information will be CricketWeb, so please enlighten us if sorry when this change takes place in Zimbabwe.
The point is that there is much unrest in Zimbabwe currently, people are becoming less afraid to stand up to the ZANU (PF). These people also know they have the backing of the international community. Not boycotting Zimbabwe gives the wrong impression to a) those who are willing to stand up and b) to those in power it says - "do what you like, we don't really care".
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
Okay I concede, as you said after hearing that Australia will not be touring Zimbabwe, Mugabe will be shattered and immidiately step down as the PM/President of Zimbabwe and and people of Zimbabwe will be free once again.

Obviously this news will never make it to USA even in this world of Internet. My only source of information will be CricketWeb, so please enlighten us if sorry when this change takes place in Zimbabwe.
:laugh:

I wasn't having a dig at you ffs...
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
I agree with you completely. I would be happy if the west did boycott Beijing, and that Musharraf was regarded as a military dictator rather than some sort of "friend with a few flaws" as he is now.

That said, I would rather the powers-that-be make the right call on one of the three situations than on none of them.
Completely endorse with one further addendum - the terrible odour emanating from Zimbabwe's selection policy (cricket). THis is more directly related to the sport than just the political situation in the country.
 

Salamuddin

International Debutant
Ideally, I think everyone should boycott the Beijing Olympics, but as has been stated, the issue of whether you approve of another country isn't black and white. You mention Pakistan and Musharraf - the fact is that Musharraf and the army, undemocratic and corrupt as they are, are the only thing holding that country together as a functional state. If they were ousted and the religious loonies over the got into power then we're all for a **** of a time - and the Pakistani people are in for a worse time. They're probably the best option for the Pakistani people, and as such are probably the lesser of the evils available for the time being.

China regime is abhorrent in many ways, but is again different from Zimbabwe. They are working to significantly improve the standard of living for people in China, with notable successes, and while that doesn't excuse their human rights violations, it does, in combination with their increasing willingness to act as a mature and constructive international citizen, mean that its worth trying to work with them to lead them to a better way of behaviour.

Or is the cosying up to China more likely to be a case of economic convenience ? We all lknow that Western companies want to take advantage of China's lower labour costs.....from Boeing moving its construction plants to the likes of Microsoft instituting their research centres in Beijing and Shanghai. With so much money invested there, surely human rights details pale into insignificance.
China has showed no sign of giving up Tibet or renouncing its claim to Taiwan. It continues its arms buildup at an alarming rate and has sought to build bases and influence throughout SE Asia and the Pacific.
Amnesty International itself has admitted that China, despite increased globalization has not resulted in any great improvement in press freedom or basic human rights if at all.
You'd be seriously deluded if you think China's character has changed simply because they have de-regulated their economy.

As for Pakistan, dude I'm Pakistani myself......if you seriously think Musharraf is the only possible good ruler Pakistan can have, you don't know very much about Pakistan I'm afraid.
Pakistan is basically run by MUsharraf and his set of cronies who have economic and personal interests invested in Western countries such as the UK and the USA. the USA needs Musharraf in place so that Central Asian gas can flow from the Uzbek and Kazakh republics to the ports of Gwadar and Karachi. In return, they guarantee the safety of his interests.
So in effect, you have a "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours". situation.
Democracy, or the lack of it, is completely irrelevant to all parties concerned.
The whole "Pakistan is a religious tinderbox" issue is seriously overplayed by the media......most of those ultra-religious parties have very little real influence despite their rhetoric.
Real Power in Pakistan remains in the hands of the select few.....
I should also point out that the USA has always supported miltary dictatorships in Pakistan even well before 9/11......so the argument that Musharraf is being supported because he is the best option because of these these troubled times doesn't really hold much water.
 

Salamuddin

International Debutant
A more appropriate question is why Howard/Blair chose to intervene in Iraq but have done nothing in relation to Zimbabwe, a country they have closer ties to via the Commonwealth.

.
Does Zimbabwe have oil ? Well I know Zimbabwe is a country rich in mineral deposits but Mugabe is not permitting Western companies to take advantage of those.
 

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